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| Fishers of men and women | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 17. January 2009, 17:53 (158 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. January 2009, 17:53 Post #1 |
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Rather than back track in Acts I will post this query here. It is pretty obvious the Apostles were quite clever men. Why do so many people say Jesus chose twelve uneducated men? |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| James | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 10:34 Post #2 |
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Ah ! from a small stream will flow a mighty river ! I would not say they were quite uneducated as can be seen from Peters' speech at pentecost. But. I agree, they were simple people with small political or religious influence. But then are these not the people who are the very life blood of the church through the generations. They carried the faith through communism, reformations and all types of persecutions simply and at home or in small communities. With their holy pictures on the wall and statues on the mantlepieces and lighted candles in front of a picture of the sacred heart. Un-noticed by the great idealists and politicians who wanted to change the world. Any yet as Jesus said "blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" The question is not why he picked them rather than who else could he pick. Not the high priest and his following surely. Edited by James, Sunday, 18. January 2009, 13:39.
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 11:34 Post #3 |
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I wonder how we could relate that to the present day?  Peter and the other apostles were "nobodies". Jesus acknowledged their values, which he nurtured. They became fishers of men. We must have a lot of potential fishers, nowadays. What do we do with their talents? Who chooses the new disciples, and on what basis? Who nurtures their talents? The world is secularised. There is much fishing to do. |
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| Bob Crowley | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 12:25 Post #4 |
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The word is "uneducated", not "dumb" or "stupid". If we went back a century even in our own time, many of the people today who have tertiary qualifications would not have been given the chance to do so. But they'd have been just as intelligent. What the Pharisees noted about Peter et al is that they were not educated or of high standing, which in that society at that time meant training as a priest or scribe, or being rich or influential. The disciples were, literally, uneducated. I've got a book by a bloke called Brother Yun, a Chinese evangelist who spent years in prison in China, and is now based in Germany In his opinion, Westerrn churches place too much stock on education, big church buildings, programs and even tradition. Whereas in China the Christian church is exploding, in the West it's decaying. He was mainly addressing Protestant churches, since he's Protestant himself, but his comments are equally valid when applied to the Catholic Church. In His opinion, the core is knowing Christ. I wonder how many of us can really claim to do that? If Christ is really coming "through" a person, some people will be drawn to follow, while others will persecute. |
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| James | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 13:48 Post #5 |
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Agree and disagree in some places, Perhaps not educated in the priestly functions but when you look at these men, (1) they all had a grounding in the laws of moses (2) Some had business acumen and Peter probably had a little business or at least was educated enough to barter and buy and sell, maintain a boat, keep some records (3) A tax collector was also a man of education, he had to know mathematics, keep good records and ensure all monies went to the proper source. (4) Read Johns' first chapter in his gospel - this is a work of spiritual genius - not from an uneducated man One could go on about all these men and yes, perhaps not what we would wquate with university degree but certainly not uneducated in the sense of being ignorant Edited by James, Sunday, 18. January 2009, 13:50.
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| James | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 14:21 Post #6 |
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This is not at odds with what has happened in the past. But in the catholic church in the west, an element of the church tends sometimes to operate in the undercurrent despite what has gone on in the public eye. As I said, during persecutions and now secularisation it has always been there in the undercurrent waiting to well up again. The great cathedrals and castles may have been for the glory of God but are now difficult to maintain and probably did not identify with many people Probably the apostles might not have been very enamoured with them either. Their cathedrals were in the hearts of the people. It is still there in the people not 'newsworthy' and who plod along regardless of what the current fixation may be. And there are a lot of them out there believe you me. No, Jesus, is still with the church and I believe decay is not certain. Dormant perhaps. Edited by James, Sunday, 18. January 2009, 14:31.
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| OsullivanB | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 14:56 Post #7 |
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I wonder. They were after all bred to temple worship in a very fine building indeed. |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 15:09 Post #8 |
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It is both undercurrent + current cathedral + heart traditional + charismatic Gerry P.S. The twelve were educated by the greatest Rabbi ever. G |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 17:05 Post #9 |
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He would need to understand navigation, safety procedures, perhaps some first aid, and financial budgeting, As appointed Head of the Church he needed man management skills and good organising ability. Nowadays Peter would probably qualify for a degree in Business Administration EPA (Ecclesiastic, Pectoral and Aquatic studies). Having learnt about God from Jesus, and been given the nod of approval, if he were still alive now, he would surely be eligible for the chair in pastoral theology at the Gregorian College, Rome. Lacking paper qualifications, he would be ineligible for ordination. |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 18. January 2009, 18:56 Post #10 |
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I find that many people describe knowledgeable people as intelligent. In my opinion an intelligent person is one who uses whatever knowledge, experience or talent he/she has. A person can be very knowledgeable but not necessarily intelligent. |
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| william of bow | Monday, 19. January 2009, 19:56 Post #11 |
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We are no where explicitely told that the 12 were 'clever' or 'educated' men. I think that the 12 were a good representation of 'everyman' with regard to their society. Mathew was a Tax Collector and so would have known how to add and subtract, keep (double entry) ledgers and he would have had an understanding about the value and cost of useful things and about being a Merchant. Peter (I read somewhere) was the son of a man who was head of a fishing business, which meant that he owned several or more boats, and that he also controlled the local fish market. That meant that he employed dozens and was almost certainly rich. Peter's house in Capernaum is certainly one of the larger and grander houses in that town. A certain rude knowledge would be required to sail boats - not certain about 'navigation' skills as The Lake is small, most of the shore can be seen with the naked eye and the boats even today do not stray far from their little ports. But knowledge of the currents, the shoals and the deep parts, where the fish are likely to be, etc would be required. Skippering a small craft though is not about education, rather itis a skill or a craft learned through long experience and exposure to the skills required. One imagines that the Apostles were well versed and taught in Scripture and what we would now call 'Aplogetics' in the Jewish faith. They were, of course 'righteous', being devout and pious Jewish men. |
William of Bow[G.K.Chesterton] Check my Blog: http://www.williamonthehill.typepad.co.uk | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 20. January 2009, 00:50 Post #12 |
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This is at least doubtful, since there is no record of such bookkeeping until over 1,000 years later. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 20. January 2009, 17:00 Post #13 |
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OSullivanB, my accounting lecturer taught us that double entry bookkeeping was invented by the ancient Greeks, Matthew might well have been used that method of recording taxes due and collected. |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 20. January 2009, 17:12 Post #14 |
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I would be interested in the reference, as I think your lecturer was wrong. Every reference I have found through Google confirms my understanding that double-entry accounting is found in Europe for the first time in the 13th/14th centuries in Italy.
Edited by OsullivanB, Tuesday, 20. January 2009, 17:26.
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