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| Church choirs; Music at Mass | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 14. January 2009, 16:30 (664 Views) | |
| Fortunatus | Tuesday, 19. May 2009, 23:04 Post #31 |
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Damian Thompson's blog I do try to avoid linking directly to blogs normally but I think this particular contribution by Damian is worthy of some debate on this site. I will no doubt hear about it if moderators disagree!
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 19. May 2009, 23:11 Post #32 |
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Laurence England is amongst other bloggers who have commented on this story. I know it's very irreverent but the final part of his post made me laughBones |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 19. May 2009, 23:26 Post #33 |
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How tempting, to disagree just so that I can make you give us a rendition of the Clapping Gloria as a penance. I did edit your post a bit, because the big long link made the page too wide. I changed it to a short link to THE blog. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 19. May 2009, 23:29 Post #34 |
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Will someone please explain to me the meaning of Colours of Day and Lord of the Dance |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Fortunatus | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 13:12 Post #35 |
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Mrs Fortunatus (a former primary school teacher) is just about prepared to countenance "If I were a butterfly" on the grounds that it might just about be suitable for six-year-olds. Mention of "Colours of Day" causes her to go cross-eyed and red in the face while steam issues from both ears. An impressive sight, I assure you, but one to be witnessed from a great distance. I sympathise. As for "Lord of the Dance", the tune is by Copland from his "Appalachian Spring" and the words by Donald Swann of Flanders & Swann fame (for those of a certain vintage). Its religious significance escapes me. I was interested in the comment (by somebody fairly well down the list) that a lot of modern hymns appeared to have been composed for six-year-olds and the idea seemed to have grown up that that was the most complicated that the modern Catholic was capable of understanding. Note the comment by Annie on page 4 and the speed with which everything was dumped in favour of the "new"; her recollection is precisely mine. One minute it was hymns in praise of God, the next it was hymns in praise of us. Mayhew's adaptation of "Hail, Queen of Heaven" — for those who don't want to go hunting for it, he changed "Remind thy Son that he has paid/The price of iniquity" to "Remind us all that we are saved/In spite of our iniquity" — is a. heretical; b. meaningless; c. unnecessary. So a hymn to our Holy Mother, asking her to intercede with her Son (do you want me to go into the theology of Mary as co-Redemptrix, etc.? No, I thought not!) has become a ....... I'm not sure what it has become but not what was intended. There's more ... |
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| Paduan | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 14:04 Post #36 |
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My local parish is very small but our priest does make us try hard to sing. We have a 'choir', well, more of a bunch of pensioners who at least know the tune before they sing it, and our priest chooses the hymns. We do have a very small congregation though which really works against enthusiastic singing when the tune is unfamiliar or the rhythm of the hymn is esoteric (frequently we'll get a hymn where the beats match only half the syllables and that can really throw the congregation - including me - into a tuneless mumble from which they don't really recover). One thing I find frequently is that many many hymns are pitched in such a way as to make them very difficult for men to sing. I *can* sing, but like many people, my range seems to be half an octave out from the range of the tune I'm trying to sing to. That makes it incredibly hard to sing comfortably and singing through an ascending range of notes only to stop half way through and start again from a lower register is awkward, uncomfortable and often vaguely embarrassing. I've noticed that hymns transplanted from, say, the Methodists, seem much easier to sing even even though the melody itself is quite complicated. Is there something wrong with Catholic hymns or is there something wrong with my singing? Either way, I have trouble! Having said all that, if there's a decent choir with a range of ranges within it, the results can be glorious. Recently I attended what might be called a 'High Mass' at Our Lady and the English Martyrs in Cambridge where there was a PROPER choir (and a REAL organ too) and the experience was spell-binding. St Edmunds in Bungay, Suffolk, has a similar choral experience when I visited a couple of years ago, including a fantastic soloist. It really does transport one into wonder and awe in the experience of worship in a way that five shouty pensioners (bless their hearts!) can't, despite the best of intentions, really manage. Our worship can be so much improved by a good choir and any efforts to improve our singing really must be encouraged! All that being said, by the way, I'm going to annoy Fortunatus: I actually quite like "Lord of the Dance." A song sung for God in a way that can gives enjoyment *can* be a spiritual and religious experience even if the lyrics might seem banal or the metaphorical content escapes one. If it attracts not necessarily everyone but certain types of people to Mass then it puts them in the right place to hear the Word of God, and the happier they are the more receptive they'll be to hearing. Solemnity need not be somber and worship comes in many different guises. Tastes vary - one size doesn't fit all and all need not be expected to have to fit in with the 'one size'. God gave us diversity therefore we should have diverse ways in which we can worship Him. |
| Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. | |
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| Fortunatus | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 14:39 Post #37 |
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You're not going to annoy Fortunatus, at all. Sorry to disappoint you. I recognise the church you're talking about. Not mine, by any chance? Saturday Vigil is without an organist (occasionally if it is his turn on the Ministry of Dishing out Hymn Books rota) we have someone who knows the right notes on a guitar). The hymns are selected by the organist and I have suggested (with little hope of a response) that if he wants us to sing 'em he can damn' well come and play 'em! The problem with too many folkie hymns is that they are a bit self-indulgent in the composing department. Some reasonable tunes (though a lot inappropriate for liturgical use IMO) but quite impossible for congregational singing because of the phrasing or the "off" beat they start on or the variation in the length of line or a dozen other reasons. An organist can just about hold them together; a capella they're a disaster. I like Copland. Why ruin a good tune with shmalz? And we're Catholics, Paduan. We don't go to Mass on Sunday because we like the tunes (though we may, if we have the choice, pick one where the music is more to our taste) and we don't "sell" Catholicism on the basis of its having better music than the Prods down the road! |
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| Paduan | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 15:52 Post #38 |
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We're asked to sing our worship. Because there are so many different personality types out there our worship will naturally be expressed in different ways for different people. I have very broad musical tastes: I like 'folk' hymns and I love 'Early Music' as well. There is merit in many different musical forms of expression. We may be Catholics, but we'd better face up to the fact that we're human too, which comes with personal tastes and how we react to our experience of things. Some people may well choose to go one place over another because they like the tunes better. And that is something we need to deal with. Likewise, while we don't *sell* Catholicism as you rightly say on the basis of better music (or not) it certainly doesn't hurt to try harder in the musical department anyway. We may not be "selling" but we darn well ought to be *attracting*. I appreciate there are practical issues involved, but if we can offer different types of worship style we can *attract* lots of different types of people to different (but orthodox) forms of worship with which they can feel comfortable with and attached to. Surely that's what being Catholic is all about? (And what St Paul was writing about in all his letters to different Christian communities in their local social contexts) |
| Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. | |
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| Derekap | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 17:43 Post #39 |
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I am intrigued by people such as James MacMillan claiming to speak for thousands of Catholics in his criticism of our Church music. Let's face facts, we all have varying tastes. At the risk of boring long-standing members of this forum, I well remember in the days of Latin Holy Mass a choir of at the most six trying to sing something that needed at least sixteen. They were led by a non-Catholic choirmaster and the choir was very loyal and devoted to its duties but to me it was sometimes rather painful. I feel certain they are enjoying Heaven for all their efforts but I hope their efforts are much better when, hopefully, I get there. As for hymns - one person's poisson (French for fish) can be another's poison. Recently a man, roughly of my age, said he didn't like a certain traditional hymn to Our Lady which I like very much, though I rarely hear it these days. Like Paduan I also sometimes have difficulty because of the pitch of the music. Also some organists like to play every note as a thumping chord which can be annoying. The church my wife and I attend has at least six organists who play on Saturday or Sunday or special occasions. They all have a different style and one plays faster than the others. In fairness he is enthusiastic and dilligent - and he is not a Catholic. The organist and the handful of recently formed choirmembers are about nine feet from where we sit. We sing hymns at the beginning during the Offertory, Distribution of Holy Communion and at the end. We also sing the Allelulias before the Gospel and the Holy Holy Holy at the end of the Preface. Occasionally we sing the Peruvian Gloria and Shalom duing the Sign of Peace. I suppose one could call it a "Singing Mass" but not a"Sung Mass" in the sense of a High Mass with only the Celebrant . It is the only Holy Mass on the Sunday. Edited by Derekap, Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 17:47.
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| Derekap | |
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| Fortunatus | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 18:07 Post #40 |
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Sorry, guys. The Catholic Church doesn't do "varying tastes" or "different ways for different people". We've had this argument before. How is a priest supposed to celebrate Mass in 250 "different ways" and supply 250 different hymns for 250 "varying tastes" all at the same time. Liturgy is not about us; it's about God. Go read Sacrosanctum Concilium. That is what the Church expected of us. You want to sing rubbish (in my opinion) hymns just because they're all warm and mushy and feel-good? That's fine; just don't sing them during Mass and think they're liturgical. They're not. You want to sing "Follow Me" or "Lord of the Dance" or even "The Church's One Foundation" (which happens to be one of my favourites and which our organist 'claims' he doesn't know) do it as a processional or a recessional when the occasion is appropriate (as in hymns to Our Lady during May and October; Advent hymns in Advent; Lenten hymns in Lent). From the time Father says "In the Name of the Father ..." to the point where he says "Go, the Mass is ended ..." (which, please God, is not an invitation to sing that hymn!) sing the Mass or say the responses. And Macmillan is objectively right, Derek. Like it or not, the standard of Catholic church music in the English-speaking world is largely rubbish and has been for well over a century. We are frightened of "good" music — which is, incidentally, a term I hate because there is excellent pop and appalling classical just as there is good and bad religious music — for reasons which escape me and as many of the commenters on Damian's blog argue we are happy with tripe because we don't know any better. AND ... a six-voice choir trying to sing music intended for at least sixteen is just another form of tripe. I'm not surprised you found it painful. |
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| Paduan | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 20:08 Post #41 |
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I ought to point out that the Church does do 'varying tastes'. We have spoken Masses with no singing. We have 'Family Masses' with singing and hymns with words and melodies accessible to children (often these are called Folk Masses). We have Solemn Sung Masses with choirs and traditional 'classical' music. What these things have in common is that they're all Holy Mass. That never changes but the style in which it is celebrated adapts to the communities in which it is celebrated. Remember, hymns you may describe as rubbish, mushy and feel-good is a subjective opinion. To someone else they may be the perfect stimulus for identifying vital parts of one's religion. Furthermore, since the Motu Proprio permitting both the Ordinary and Extraordinary form, isn't it clear that the Church very definitely DOES take account of varying tastes? We have one Eucharist that is presented to us in two forms which people can make a personal choice (ideally they'll have the chance to do so) about which form to attend. You get to worship according to your taste in the matter. I'm not suggesting anyone sings Yellow Submarine at Mass, but hymns and music at Mass are naturally enjoyed subjectively and they come in a few basic types (not 250!) and it seems only logical that, where possible, parishes should cater for these basic types in order to attract as many people into Mass as possible. It certainly doesn't seem like a good idea to lock down music at Mass into one type and one type only and then cause a segment of the congregation to suffer it rather than be uplifted by it... |
| Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis. | |
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| Deleted User | Wednesday, 20. May 2009, 21:24 Post #42 |
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Sounds impressive, I only give way and allow colours of day to be sung when I am feeling penitential. On the broader topic some Hymns only work with a choir to lead such as: Tell Out My Soul and Others only work with youth groups or in childrens assemblies, the Buterfly thing being one, In generall though I love a good tune and unintentionaly I find the congregation always manage to add the 'Odd' harmony.
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 21. May 2009, 00:53 Post #43 |
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Fortunatus, if you intend reading Fr Ray's blog I suggest you make sure you sit down first. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 21. May 2009, 17:26 Post #44 |
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Fortunatus wrote: "Sorry, guys. The Catholic Church doesn't do "varying tastes" or "different ways for different people". We've had this argument before. How is a priest supposed to celebrate Mass in 250 "different ways" and supply 250 different hymns for 250 "varying tastes" all at the same time. Liturgy is not about us; it's about God." The Church has twenty Rites of Holy Mass, one of which, The Latin Rite, has two versions. The pre V2 Westminster Hymnal had numerous hymns. The hymn books used in the church we attend have a thousand hymns, psalms etc. If this is not catering for "varying tastes" or "different ways for different people", what is it? Obviously none of us expect 250 hymns during one Holy Mass. But your choice of hymns most certainly would not suit everybody, neither would mine. Even in the heydays of the Tridentine Holy High or Sung Mass there were non-liturgical hymns during the Offertory even if the Gloria, Creed etc were Gregorian or Palestrina. Of course there are Rites of Holy Mass used by the Schismatic Churches! So there is indeed a variation of tastes! |
| Derekap | |
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| CARLO | Friday, 22. May 2009, 21:42 Post #45 |
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There may be a variation of tastes but there is also good taste and bad taste! Weeping deer, lighting fires and reworked Cat Stevens or Bob Dylan lyrics come into the bad taste category along with the out of tune guitars, wailing recorders and screeching first term violin students that are sent to torment us from time to time. Libera nos Deliver us CARLO |
| Judica me Deus | |
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9:18 AM Jul 11