Allerton Bywater

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Allerton Bywater; Closure of Churches in Diocese of Leeds
Topic Started: Saturday, 9. August 2008, 15:14 (1,473 Views)
Fortunatus	Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:36 Post #31
Posts: 721 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Quote: Does the blog give the lie to claims that Leeds Diocese has a culture of antagonism towards Mass in the Extraordinary Form? I think not. I'd have a look at this again, Rose, if I were you!



Rose of York	Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:56 Post #32
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:36 I'd have a look at this again, Rose, if I were you! Ooops! Ta! (that's not Latin, it's vernacular). Duly edited, I have also added the link to LMS Leeds blog.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Patrick	Monday, 18. August 2008, 17:15 Post #33
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:33 Why don't bloggers keep their criticism for the bishops who have made little or no effort to promote Mass in the Extraordinary Form? They always pick on Bishop Roche. I guess it's far easier to pick on a single Bishop than tackle the whole Bishops' Conference of England & Wales...



KatyA	Monday, 18. August 2008, 19:13 Post #34
Administrator Posts: 5,418 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	It appears that the parishioners have organised an i-petition Petition



Rose of York	Monday, 18. August 2008, 21:21 Post #35
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	I have just spoken, on the phone, to a relative who lives in the Leeds Diocese. I am told the Latin Mass at Batley is well attended, the one at Heckmondwike is "packed solid". The church at Heckmonkwike is quite a good size. The photo is too big for the forum, so here is a link. Its a beautiful church, well maintained. http://www.holyspiritchurch.org.uk/P7220191.JPG
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Patrick	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 17:50 Post #36
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Quote: BBC's 'Sunday' programme exposes the cruelty of the Diocese of Leeds Sunday, August 17, 2008, 12:28 PM GMT [General] If you want evidence of the dreadful attitude of the Catholic diocese of Leeds towards the parishioners of the churches it is closing, then listen to a recording of this morning's BBC Radio 4 Sunday programme. Here is the link; the item is 14 minutes in. A parishioner's banner at the protest in Allerton Bywater On Friday, parishioners from St John the Evangelist, Allerton Bywater, Our Lady of Lourdes, Ackworth and Holy Family, Chequerfield travelled to Hinsley Hall, the diocesan HQ, to register their protest at the behaviour of the Bishop of Leeds, Arthur Roche. The reception they received was insulting � but entirely in character. Was Bishop Roche there to meet them? Of course not. Mgr McQuinn, author of illiterate emails berating various campaigners? Nope. Instead, the parishioners � some of whom have devoted their lives to their parishes � were faced by the short-tempered diocesan press officer, John Grady. Earlier, we heard parishioners explain how much their churches meant to them. One man from Holy Family said: "I've been coming here for 43 years. My children were baptised here, my daughter was married here, my wife was buried here. If this goes, the biggest part of my life will go." A lady called Maureen said: "It's the very meaning of my life. It's not just the building, it's the community." In the coach to Hinsley Hall, the parishioners sang "Oh Lord, hear my prayer". Well, the Lord may have been listening, but the diocese wasn't. All you hear on the broadcast is Grady telling people to leave the building after handing in the petition. No bishop, of course. The Vicar General? "He isn't here." The diocesan Chancellor? "He isn't here." In an interview, Grady says that falling Mass attendance and shortage of priests means churches have to be closed. (I don't think anyone disputes that point.) He then takes us through Bishop Arthur's loving, pastoral method of managing the crisis. "In each individual area, he's produced DVDs, given them to people, asked them to go away and look at them in groups, asked them to write in ... but none of them have produced a different plan. But I can assure you categorically that he has agonised over this." Presumably Bishop Arthur is in too much "agony" to see, or reply to formal protests from, parishioners of St John the Baptist, which is due to hold its last Mass today. Incidentally, I gather that Roche's name is on the list of three candidates to succeed Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor at Westminster. Before Pope Benedict makes his decision, perhaps he should ask the opinion of some faithful, deeply distressed Catholics in West Yorkshire. They might have something to say. Holy Smoke And, one of DT's comments: Quote: Like Fr Lawler, the Pope believes that, where possible, Mass should be celebrated ad orientem. Presumably you believe that Benedict should be in the SSPX. I'm sure the Bishops' Conference would rather he was anywhere other than the Chair of St Peter. In response to "Formica Iratus": Quote: Frankly, if a priest refuses to follow his Bishop's instructions - that is to say to offer the Ordinary Form of Mass in the way most Catholics in this country are used to, then he is in serious delict of his duties. He also promised obedience to his Bishop (and successors) at his ordination. Where is that obedience? Perhaps he would be better at home in SSPX? and this comment from DT: Quote: May I remind readers that "Martin", a poster to this blog who I believe is a senior priest of the diocese, suggested that Fr Lawler become an Anglican? Bishop Arthur's cheerleaders would rather a priest left the Church than say Mass in a way which is more in harmony with the wishes of the Pope than with their own dated, trendy churchmanship. Just shows what the pro-Motu Proprio mob are up against in the parishes. I'm sure Bishop Arthur Roche is a very, very nice man and all that - but he is in Cardinal Cormac's Magic Circle. And for as long as that Magic Circle remains, you'll be lucky to see any real implementation of Summorum Pontificium in this country and that little principality next to it! I get fellow Trads, and ex-fellow Trads coming to me and saying "With the MP, everything has changed!". They need to realise that: NOTHING HAS CHANGED.



Rose of York	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:00 Post #37
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 17:50 I get fellow Trads, and ex-fellow Trads coming to me and saying "With the MP, everything has changed!". They need to realise that: NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Patrick have you read my posting of Yesterday, 5:33 PM? Some people do not believe there have been changes, because they don't want to believe it. There are plenty such on Holy Smoke. Can't you find a bishop you can knock, on the grounds that he has no more than two or three EF Masses per month in his diocese?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Patrick	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 Post #38
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:00 Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 17:50 I get fellow Trads, and ex-fellow Trads coming to me and saying "With the MP, everything has changed!". They need to realise that: NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Patrick have you read my posting of Yesterday, 5:33 PM? Yes, I have Rose. Quote: Some people do not believe there have been changes, because they don't want to believe it. There are plenty such on Holy Smoke. Rose, when I said "NOTHING HAS CHANGED" I was referring to the attitudes of Bishops in this country and Wales, who by and large take little notice of what comes from Rome these days and whose attitude towards the Motu Proprio is as if it didn't concern them. Quote: Can't you find a bishop you can knock, on the grounds that he has no more than two or three EF Masses per month in his diocese? Probably. Although, this whole situation is a bit iffy: We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure?



Rose of York	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 20:59 Post #39
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? Assuming the Bishop of Leeds is correct in stating there are insufficient priests to keep open all the parishes in Pontefract Deanery, if it was your responsibility to make the decision, which would you have selected for closure? It would be worth taking into account the cultural change in the area, over the past thirty years.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 21:03 Post #40
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? Has Bishop Budd closed ancient parishes?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Patrick	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 22:56 Post #41
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 21:03 Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? Has Bishop Budd closed ancient parishes? Maybe not ancient in the strictest sense of the word, but Chideock springs to mind - and the consideration +Budd and his obnoxious VG gave to those parishioners!



Patrick	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 23:13 Post #42
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 20:59 Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? Assuming the Bishop of Leeds is correct in stating there are insufficient priests to keep open all the parishes in Pontefract Deanery, if it was your responsibility to make the decision, which would you have selected for closure? It would be worth taking into account the cultural change in the area, over the past thirty years. Cultural change in where, Allerton Bywater? What has "cultural change" got to do with closing the church there? Are the local Muslims short of a mosque and need the land it's built on? Come on Rose, we have cultural change in our town with the arrival of thousands of immigrants and the local council setting aside developments originally for young families for them. None of the Catholic Churches in this town have had to close - apart from St Peter's in Gadebridge, but that was handed back to the Anglicans thanks to the kiddy-fiddling priest, Michael Hobbs. [redit][/redit] Edited by Patrick, Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 23:14.



Rose of York	Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 23:58 Post #43
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 23:13 Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 20:59 It would be worth taking into account the cultural change in the area, over the past thirty years. Cultural change in where, Allerton Bywater? What has "cultural change" got to do with closing the church there? Are the local Muslims short of a mosque and need the land it's built on? Who mentioned muslims? Cultural change takes many forms. It can be due to population shift caused by many factors, not to do with race or creed. The arguments about Allerton Bywater go round in circles. I don't think any of us can fully understand the situation in any area with which we are not very familiar. I "understand" West Yorkshire in general, but I cannot claim to have a thorough grasp of Catholic life in the Pontefract Deanery. I can say the culture in Leeds, a major city, is entirely different from towns and villages only a few miles away, so few of us can judge whether church closures are avoidable. I have given plenty of facts about the general provision of Latin Mass in the Extraordinary Form in Leeds Diocese. I don't think there is much more I can say on this issue,
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Patrick	Wednesday, 20. August 2008, 00:20 Post #44
Administrator Posts: 3,633 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 20:59 Assuming the Bishop of Leeds is correct in stating there are insufficient priests to keep open all the parishes in Pontefract Deanery, if it was your responsibility to make the decision, which would you have selected for closure? It would be worth taking into account the cultural change in the area, over the past thirty years. IF I were the Bishop of Leeds, I wouldn't have to close any parishes. I'd do what the myopic bishops of this country seem to never do - loan them out to the likes of the ICKSP, FSSP and others



Rose of York	Wednesday, 20. August 2008, 15:11 Post #45
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 22:56 Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 21:03 Has Bishop Budd closed ancient parishes? Maybe not ancient in the strictest sense of the word, but Chideock springs to mind - and the consideration +Budd and his obnoxious VG gave to those parishioners! Patrick I take it you mean you find the treatment, not the person, obnoxious. I don't see what positive contribution such comments, and referring to bishops by their surnames only, do to strengthen your points. What ARE your points? Can you back them up with facts? Blogs are full of opinions, expressed by people who call themselves traditionalists, about Bishop Roche's attitude and his personality. Few of the objectors to closures add any facts. What say you about the obvious widening provision of Mass in the EF in Leeds Diocese, compared with others? They are doing better than most. Patrick Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:26 Rose of York Tuesday, 19. August 2008, 18:00 Can't you find a bishop you can knock, on the grounds that he has no more than two or three EF Masses per month in his diocese? Probably. Although, this whole situation is a bit iffy: We can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" [ie Bishop Budd] but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? Patrick you did not answer my question. Why are the people who call themselves traditionalist, picking on Bishop Roche, when so many other bishops have made hardly any provision at all for the Latin and EF lovers? Parishes that are "Novus Ordo" are closing all over the country, the situation at Preston is very serious. In many dioceses, people are feeling unhappy, and complaining and campaigning, whatever the preference for liturgy in each parish. I certainly did not say it we can bash a bishop for closing parishes, sometimes ancient, that are "Novus Ordo" but not a bishop for wanting to close a "Trad parish" where there is absolutely no reason for closure? At Allerton Bywater and neighbouring parishes there is a good reason for closure and it has NOTHING to do with liturgy.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


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