Allerton Bywater

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Allerton Bywater; Closure of Churches in Diocese of Leeds
Topic Started: Saturday, 9. August 2008, 15:14 (1,470 Views)
Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:22 Post #16
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:13 Certainly it would seem that Fr Lawler has a personal following but if you pursue the Holy Smoke comments further you will also see it suggested (I put it no stronger) that the OF in the vernacular was resulting in reduced congregations.. My guess is that we can only guess the reasons for what is going on. I have yet to hear that elsewhere, provision of Mass in the EF has led to reduced congregations for the OF in the vernacular.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


KatyA	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:43 Post #17
Administrator Posts: 5,391 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Where did he get that hat? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/08/15/parishioners_to_march_on_leeds_tonight



Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:47 Post #18
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	KatyA Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:43 Where did he get that hat? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/08/15/parishioners_to_march_on_leeds_tonight Off his mum's tea pot? That hat is definite proof that Bishop Roche is a modernist. Traditionalist bishops wear traditional gear. http://www.traditionalflatcaps.com/flat%20cap%20on%20bear%202%20copy.jpg
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


KatyA	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 14:48 Post #19
Administrator Posts: 5,391 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	The Yorkshire Evening Post reports on the march to Leeds Yorkshire Post



Fortunatus	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 15:18 Post #20
Posts: 720 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	I'm sorry but "rapid growth and over-localisation" produces two reactions in me which combined have an adverse effect on my blood pressure: +



Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 15:51 Post #21
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	The rapid growth in church in that diocese happened in fifty years ago, when Bishop Heenan built new churches to serve the new houses that were being built on the outskirts of towns. It makes a change to hear of parishioners making their voices heard, instead of going like lambs to the slaughter. I understand that under Canon Law, land, property and other assets belong to the parish. Under English law they belong to the charity (Diocesan Trust). The bishops can take their pick, choose which one serves their purpose.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Sunday, 17. August 2008, 22:47 Post #22
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	This morning, BBC broadcast a radio programme about Allerton Bywater, and other churches, closing. The link is http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/sunday/index.shtml To listen, click on This week's programme Sunday Weekly news and debate from the world of religion and ethics. Sundays, 07:10 - 07:55, BBC Radio 4 Move the slider bar on, to 14 minutes. The item lasts about five minutes. Having listened to it, my heart bleeds for those people.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


John Sweeney	Monday, 18. August 2008, 13:32 Post #23
Posts: 1,834 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	I know nothing about the situation at this particular Church apart from the various press reports. I have been involved in a committee which took the decision to close an outlying church which had once been a separate parish but had been absorbed into ours. I attended this church very often myself because the time of Mass suited me. It was not really old nor particularly striking but it had a particular niche in people's affections because its 100 plus years had seen 2 dreadful mine disasters as well as the usual family weddings funerals and christenings. In an era where closures are being looked at because of priest shortages, some of these old churches are very vulnerable because they no longer meet modern health and safety standards. A report on our church showed major outlays were needed to the bell tower, to the retaining wall which guarded a steep drop to the road, to electrical wiring and so on. I think if it had been anything other than a church it would have been closed long ago. My point is that there are sometimes practical issues which influence these decisions rather than vendettas or machinations against individual priests. John



Patrick	Monday, 18. August 2008, 13:46 Post #24
Administrator Posts: 3,629 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Having read this whole thread, and the links, I have one thing to say: Ecce sacerdos magnus - and shame on the Bishop and his VG. Up until today, I had Roche down as a half decent bishop. I admit that I was wrong. [redit][/redit]



Rose of York	Monday, 18. August 2008, 14:20 Post #25
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Patrick, I assure you there are bare faced lies on some of those other sites. People are posting on blogs saying Bishop Roche wants to suppress the Latin Mass in his diocese. Nothing could be farther from the truth, he not only encourages it - he is working on widening the provision. The one stipulation he makes, is that it is to be offered properly, in accordance with the instructions, and any priest who wishes to offer it, must make sure he is competent. In other words, if he is not experienced and competent, he must learn. Last week the Dean of Leeds Cathedral attended a week's training course, in offering Mass in the Extraordinary Form, which will soon be made available in Leeds Cathedral. The bishop has also arranged for Mass in the Extraordinary Form to be offered weekly, in a church in Pontefract, just up the road from Allerton Bywater. So much for him hating traditional worship, it is just not true. Do please bear in mind, I still chat to friends and family who have known Bishop Roche all his life. They know what is happening in their own parish, i.e. Latin Mass, weekly, it started before Summorum Pontificum, and after Arther Roche became Bishop. Some blog owners are sailing very close to the wind, considering the libels they are publishing. There may be matters the Bishop may not disclose to the public.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Fortunatus	Monday, 18. August 2008, 14:53 Post #26
Posts: 720 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Patrick Monday, 18. August 2008, 13:46 Having read this whole thread, and the links, I have one thing to say: Ecce sacerdos magnus - and shame on the Bishop and his VG. Up until today, I had Roche down as a half decent bishop. I admit that I was wrong. [redit][/redit] Careful about jumping to conclusions, Patrick. I am becoming more convinced that there is a bit of a power play at work here. We are getting conflicting signals from Leeds about the EF Mass. On the assumption that Uncle Arthur (!) is not senile or schizoid then either he is playing a very devious game � rules and aims unknown � or someone has him in a sort of administrative hammer-lock or he doesn't know what is being down in his name. I'm now happy to wait and see how it plays out. Perhaps the annual round of clergy postings (do they do it that way in Leeds?) will tell us more. Whatever the outcome I fear for the Church in England if Roche were to end up at Westminster, certainly on the evidence of this episode.



Patrick	Monday, 18. August 2008, 14:56 Post #27
Administrator Posts: 3,629 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Yes, you're both right. I am prone to jumping to conclusions at times, especially if the "evidence" appears to outweigh anything else. It certainly is interesting, this affair, and one that puts Bishop Roche in a very bad light. I'll keep an open mind for now.



Derekap	Monday, 18. August 2008, 15:04 Post #28
Posts: 3,408 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	I am not unsympathetic with those parishioners who face closure of their dear church. If the Bishop (of another diocese) were to close my previous parish church of which I was a member when it was a chapel of ease served from another parish and saw the present building rise brick by brick, I too would be very sad indeed. But the Bishop must use his supply of priests as efficiently as possible coupled also with the problem of expense of renovating and maintaining the church buildings.[redit][/redit] Edited by Derekap, Monday, 18. August 2008, 15:06.
	Derekap


Rose of York	Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:24 Post #29
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Derekap Monday, 18. August 2008, 15:04 But the Bishop must use his supply of priests as efficiently as possible coupled also with the problem of expense of renovating and maintaining the church buildings.[redit][/redit] Derek, from what I have read, it appears the churches that are closing, are all financially healthy.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:33 Post #30
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	A few years ago the only Latin Masses in Leeds Diocese were at Broughton Hall, Skipton and the now mainly disused chapel at Killingbeck Catholic Cemetery, on the outskirts of Leeds. They were held mid week, when most people were at work. Leeds LMS has a nice blog, it makes cheerful chatty reading. Latin Masses are taking place in more and more locations. I picked out Batley, Heckmondwike, Bradford, Halifax, York, Broughton Hall and Markenfield, with more to follow (including Pontefract, and at Kirkstall Abbey, the best preserved Abbey in England). Here are some quotations from the blog: http://lmsleeds.blogspot.com/ Quote: Any other men or boys wishing to learn to serve the extraordinary Rite of Mass should e-mail me now as I now have to propose a date to the Dean of the Cathedral within the next day. Those who have already responded to this and also the September training day at Halifax for the Gregorian Chant Workshop will receive details in due course. Quote: The priest in charge of tuition in the 1962 Rite of Mass and Sacraments, Father Parfitt of Broughton, is I should think, going to be a very busy man in coming weeks and months with follow up one-to-one tuition sessions for some of the Merton men and others who have expressed the desire to learn. There was a very nice turnout at Broughton on Sunday. Quote: Other Leeds priests at the conference were Canon McCreadie, Father Billington, Father Hall and Father Lawler. Canon McCreadie and Father Billington had previously had only limited exposure to the traditional Mass but I have no doubt that they were impressed with the liturgy they encountered and the training they received. I doubt it will be long before these priests are regularly offering the traditional Mass in their parishes. Father Hall will be our celebrant at the Masses at St. Peter's, Bradford starting in September. Father Hall attended as a beginner last year and this year was on an advanced course. Quote: There are 60 priests here this year learning different aspects of the traditional Liturgy, including four priests from Leeds Diocese and one former Leeds Diocesan priest. There is also a priest from Middlesbrough and a priest from Lancaster and a couple from Hexham and Newcastle. Quote: Whilst checking out the Leeds Diocese website for Bishop Roche's blog from Australia, I saw that in June there was a very impressive Corpus Christi procession of the Blessed Sacrament along the mainly Muslim Leeds Road area of Bradford. Quote: I am delighted to announce that Mass will be offered every second Sunday of the month from September at St. Peter's, Leeds Road, Laisterdyke, Bradford at 3.00p.m.(Just down the road from St. Francis church at Eccleshill, where Mass was offered last Sunday.) Quote: UPDATE; I have (at last) today heard from the authorities at Kirkstall Abbey about the procedure for having Mass there. I think I have a celebrant and a donor who wishes to remain anonymous has already told me that finance should pose no problem to organising this Mass. Quote: Mass for the Feast of St. Henry was sung tonight in the chapel of the historic Markenfield Hall by Fr. Parfitt. 60 priests attended the training at Merton College, Oxford. They included one from Middlesbrough, one from Lancaster, a couple from Hexham and Newcastle, and FOUR from Leeds, plus one former Leeds Diocesan priest. Does the blog give the lie to claims that Leeds Diocese has a culture of antagonism towards Mass in the Extraordinary Form? I think IT DOES. Why don't bloggers keep their criticism for the bishops who have made little or no effort to promote Mass in the Extraordinary Form? They always pick on Bishop Roche. Edited by Rose of York, Monday, 18. August 2008, 16:55.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


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