Allerton Bywater

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Allerton Bywater; Closure of Churches in Diocese of Leeds
Topic Started: Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:14 (1,375 Views)
KatyA	Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:14 Post #1
Administrator Posts: 4,728 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	That article is,indeed, shocking, however I suspect that the decision revolves around more than the Tridentine Rite. There is little information on the internet but I did find this: http://www.pontefractandcastlefordexpress.co.uk/letters/Church-closure-scandal.4346614.jp There is also some information on Quote: 2008-07-31 Parishioners Angry at Planned Closure of Village Church The planned closure of St John the Evangelist Church in Allerton Bywater on 17th August has angered local residents and parishioners. The church also serves worshippers from nearby Kippax . The tiny church which holds 85 is well attended and was built as a result of regular door to door collections to raise the necessary 500 pounds. Worshippers will have to make the longer journey to churches in Garforth or Castleford. The Diocese recently had the site valued. goinlocal If a "tiny church which holds 85" can raise a petition signed by 100 and that can then be ignored,there is something clearly amiss.[redit][/redit] Edited by KatyA, Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:16.



Rose of York	Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:27 Post #2
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Saturday, 9. August 2008, 15:56 Incidentally, Rose, how do you square this:- Quote: Father Tim Wiley CLERGY APPOINTMENTS: amongst the many appointments this summer, Bishop Roche has asked me to take on more responsibilities in the Diocese. I have been appointed to co ordinate the provision for the celebration of the Traditional form of the Mass across the whole Diocese.. with this ... http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/08/09/the_suppression_of_a_latinloving_parish I know Thompson's not everyone's cup of tea but you can usually reckon that if he says he "has been passed some correspondence" then some correspondence has been passed. How do we square Damian's blog with the letters in Pontefract and Castleford Express? http://www.pontefractandcastlefordexpress.co.uk/letters/Church-closure-scandal.4346614.jp Quote: Church closure scandal THERE has been a Catholic presence in Kippax and Allerton Bywater since Saxon times. There were even a good number of recusants during the penal times. Now the Roman Catholic Bishop of Leeds Arthur Roche has seen fit to wipe that all out by closing our parish church of St John the Evangelist, Allerton Bywater. He cites falling congregations and a shortage of priests. Along with the people of Holy Family, Chequerfield and Our Lady of Lourdes, Ackworth we strongly protest these reasons. Our church is full every Sunday, and weekday masses are also well attended. We have an active social life which contributes to the life of the village, particularly the elderly, and our hall is widely used. As for the shortage of priests, our present priest is being removed from normal priestly duties. The "consultation" held by the Bishop was so cynical that he never replied to, never mind discussed, the three reasoned submissions made by our parish council. We are of no significance to him. Under Church Law he is obliged to visit each parish at least once in five years – we have had no visit for more than ten years. However, all our three parishes would appear to have valuable land assets. MALCOLM D L BRUMWELL Kippax WE wish to thank all those who have voiced their support for the non-closure of Holy Family Church, Pontefract, by prayers, letters and e-mails. Please continue – God bless you all. We are heartened by the success of Hardwick Road post office, the people deserve their success, they worked hard for it. We cannot underestimate the battle ahead of us. We cannot do it alone – we need the help and support of everyone. Our goal is to be as successful as Hardwick Road – it won't be for the lack of trying. JAMES and MAUREEN WALSH, ANNE DYER, ANDREW WALKER I suspect there is more to the eye than this. In January 2007 I went back to Batley, for a few days. Father Wiley himself told me the bishop is very keen on Latin Mass being made available, and that he had deliberately selected Father Wiley's parish, and the nearby Holy Spirit, Heckmondwike because they are still ideal for traditional liturgy. Anyway, I personally think parishioners who ask for a personal parish, with no Masses in the vernacular, should spare a thought for others.[redit][/redit] Edited by Rose of York, Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:33.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Saturday, 9. August 2008, 16:34 Post #3
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	I suggest anyone wanting to keep up to date with the Allerton Bywater story, check the Yorkshire Post site. It is a good newspaper, factual and non sensational. Bishop Roche's pastoral letter, announcing re-organisation in Wakefield Deanery, which includes Allerton Bywater: http://www.dioceseofleeds.org.uk/d_bishop/letters2.php?letterid=28] Quote: One parish will be established to serve the Castleford area with one priest who will reside at Saint Joseph's Castleford. The churches of Saint Edmund's, Airedale, and Saint John's, Allerton Bywater, will close. The areas of Kippax, and Swillington will be incorporated into the parish of Saint Benedict, Garforth. I have been advised that it is important for the Credit Union at Saint Edmund's to continue until the autumn and I am happy for that to be the case even though by that time the church will have closed. The closure of St John's is the result of a consultation that went on for a long time.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Derekap	Saturday, 9. August 2008, 21:08 Post #4
Posts: 3,074 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	Probably like many people reading the Daily Telegraph I thought the closure of St John's Church in Allerton Bywater was an isolated situation caused by the probable somewhat rebellious nature of the parish priest and his flock. However, when I read the Pastoral Letter of Bishop Roche I discovered the closure is part of an area plan in which more parish churches will be closed. The Bishop expresses his regrets and understands problems such as availability of transport will arise. If he hasn't got the priests what else can he do? If also the number of Catholics in the area, for whatever reason, is declining presumably the income is also declining and, however we love our churches if we can't maintain them they will probably eventually become dangerous. From experience in non-church situations I have realised that an individual or a very small but noisy minority can easily give the impression they speak for the majority. Meanwhile let us continue to pray for more priests, the return of lapsed Catholics and conversions to the Catholic church.
	Derekap


Rose of York	Monday, 11. August 2008, 18:15 Post #5
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Derekap Saturday, 9. August 2008, 21:08 Probably like many people reading the Daily Telegraph I thought the closure of St John's Church in Allerton Bywater was an isolated situation caused by the probable somewhat rebellious nature of the parish priest and his flock. However, when I read the Pastoral Letter of Bishop Roche I discovered the closure is part of an area plan in which more parish churches will be closed. The Bishop expresses his regrets and understands problems such as availability of transport will arise. If he hasn't got the priests what else can he do? In addition to that, the announcement did not come as a surprise, as was hinted at in the local press. I have followed the development of the reorganisation across the whole of Leeds Diocese, and their consultations seem to be more thorough and open than many other dioceses. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Yorkshire-congregation-chain-themsleves-to.4327902.jp http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/localnews/Catholics-fight-to-save-their.4326222.jp Press Release http://www.dioceseofleeds.org.uk/d_news/fullstory.php?newsid=855 Sep 07 consultation http://www.dioceseofleeds.org.uk/d_news/fullstory.php?newsid=630 The consultation video produced by the bishop of Leeds relates the proud history of the recuscants of Pontefract area, the influx of Irish immigrants and the large number of new churches built after World War II. Bishop Roche goes into detail about Mass attendance statistics, now and in the past. Video - Bishop Roche, on the history of Catholicism in Pontefract area, from Norman conquest, through reformation, Jesuits etc. to the post World War II period. http://www.dioceseofleeds.org.uk/video/pont_dvd.php Derekap Saturday, 9. August 2008, 21:08 From experience in non-church situations I have realised that an individual or a very small but noisy minority can easily give the impression they speak for the majority. Meanwhile let us continue to pray for more priests, the return of lapsed Catholics and conversions to the Catholic church. The local Catholics knew, a year ago, that their church was to close. Only now have they chained themselves to the railings in protest. The truth is, there has been some dispute between the parish priest and his bishop, the parish is about to close (along with several others) and the bishop is not offering the priest another appointment. Some say "Why dismiss a parish priest who is obeying the Pope and providing for his parishioners?" Reading between the lines, I suspect the apparent dismissal of the pp is nothing to do with liturgy. Bishop Roche has a better record than most for encouraging the celebration of Mass in the Extraordinary Form, but the more extreme traditionalists seem to pick him out as a target for their anger against bishops in general who, they say, do their best to ignore Summorum Pontificum.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Fortunatus	Monday, 11. August 2008, 19:14 Post #6
Posts: 713 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Thanks, Rose! I suppose you do just about answer my question as to how you square the Batley situation with the Wakefield one! Nonetheless from the comments that DT got from people who apparently have local knowledge (I stress 'apparently') it doesn't look as if Roche has handled this as sensitively as he might. I'm still puzzled, like you, as to where this number of "appellants" has suddenly sprung from and why the comments of his Vicar-General (assuming they have been accurately reported) are as virulent as they are.



Rose of York	Monday, 11. August 2008, 20:01 Post #7
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Monday, 11. August 2008, 19:14 I'm still puzzled, like you, as to where this number of "appellants" has suddenly sprung from and why the comments of his Vicar-General (assuming they have been accurately reported) are as virulent as they are. This is only a personal opinion: The chances are most of the "parishioners" have been travelling in from elsewhere, for the liturgy of their choice, and there is the possibility a strong willed priest has a personal following. It is highly likely there has been major population shift, due to the working people leaving after the mines closed, and them being replaced by people wanting to live in a rural area. Former mining villages are now "much sought after" due to being rural, small communities, but close to major roads (A1, M1 and M62) and railways. You can't shift coal far without roads and railways! The Press quoted people who had been born in Allerton Bywater, it is possible most of the people attending the Catholic church are new to the area. This is Allerton Bywater. http://www.multimap.com/world/GB/England/West_Yorkshire/Castleford/Allerton_Bywater The black patches are attractive lakes, well known for the variety of birds. The lakes are the result of the ground sinking due to mining subsidence. You can't see the coal dust on the bed of the lake when you look at the lakes from ground level. The village does not look big enough to support a small chapel of ease, let alone a parish church. There is another church,. a couple of miles away.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Monday, 11. August 2008, 20:13 Post #8
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Monday, 11. August 2008, 19:14 I'm still puzzled, like you, as to where this number of "appellants" has suddenly sprung from and why the comments of his Vicar-General (assuming they have been accurately reported) are as virulent as they are. Damian Thompson Fr Lawler says he asked for a meeting with Bishop Roche, but to no avail. Instead, the Vicar General, one Mgr McQuinn, has written to him, telling him: "The Bishop ... believes your ministry to be divisive, is uncertain that ordinary pastoral care of parishioners is taking place and does not have confidence that you will celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass with a generous heart for the vast majority of parishioners who expect Sunday and weekday Masses to be in English and at an altar facing the people." I wonder what Monsignor McQuinn means by "ordinary pastoral care". Does he mean liturgy - or finding time for local Catholics who need the priest's time for personal matters? "does not have confidence that you will celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass with a generous heart for the vast majority of parishioners who expect Sunday and weekday Masses to be in English and at an altar facing the people." The Vicar General claims that the majority of parishioners expect Mass in English and an altar facing the people, so the 100 who appealed - where did they spring from? A rural church is doing well to have total attendance anywhere near 100. Venemous? No. Calling a a yes. It comes naturally in some quarters. Maybe it needed saying. Reading between the lines I wonder if Fr Lawler offers Mass in English, under protest, not with a generous heart.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 00:13 Post #9
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Holy Smoke Blog According to DT's blog, parishioners from three Yorkshire Churches planned to march on Hinsley Hall, the Leeds Diocesan Conference and Pastoral Centre. yesterday evening. Watch it, Arthur. The last time the people of Allerton Bywater had a demo (in 1984), they blocked the road with two National Coal Board vans. Link The 1974 miners strike started at Allerton Bywater! A word of caution: Damian Thompson And there remains the intriguing question of whether a senior Leeds priest posted defamatory allegations about a fellow clergyman to Holy Smoke and other blogs. I do hope that the author of those posts is consulting a lawyer: he’s going to need one.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Fortunatus	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 10:33 Post #10
Posts: 713 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	This whole story gets curiouser and curiouser. Are we sure that Bishop Roche is in reality only one person? His apparent support for Summorum Pontificum on the ground in Batley does not square with his published comments on the matter. I suspect the whole Pontefract business is a classic example of lousy man-management, something which you would hope a pastor might be sort of good at. As for his Vicar-General. Is he one person or two? Who is the mysterious Fr Martin whose main function appears to be to spread defamatory, illiterate, and bad-tempered comments around the Catholic Blogosphere. I think DT is right about one thing and that is that there is ample opportunity for a good libel lawyer in all this. I went to college with a girl from Glasshoughton. Wonderful person but nothing came of it. I married a girl from Sheffield instead. Does that still make me an honorary Yorkshireman, Rose?



Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 11:58 Post #11
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Saturday, 16. August 2008, 10:33 I went to college with a girl from Glasshoughton. Wonderful person but nothing came of it. I married a girl from Sheffield instead. Does that still make me an honorary Yorkshireman, Rose? You're argumentative, strong willed, forthright, and friendly with it, so I appoint you an honorary Yorkshireman, qualified by association and experience. Fortunatus Saturday, 16. August 2008, 10:33 This whole story gets curiouser and curiouser. Are we sure that Bishop Roche is in reality only one person? His apparent support for Summorum Pontificum on the ground in Batley does not square with his published comments on the matter. I suspect the whole Pontefract business is a classic example of lousy man-management, something which you would hope a pastor might be sort of good at. As for his Vicar-General. Is he one person or two? Fortunatus, your post got me thinking. I am certain Bishop Roche supports the provision of traditional liturgy. Vicars General are heavily involved when Diocesan reorganisation is ongoing. You may have hit on something. For all we know, the two may be pulling in opposite directions.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Fortunatus	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 12:41 Post #12
Posts: 713 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Quote: You're argumentative, strong willed, forthright, and friendly with it, so I appoint you an honorary Yorkshireman, qualified by association and experience. :blessyou: , Rose! As for the other matter ... There are a lot of entrenched views abroad in the modern world (if you can be 'entrenched' and 'abroad' at the same time). The two that I have most dealings with in my on-line life are the climate change extremists who cannot bear even the slightest hint of opposition to the faith as they see it and the Catholic modernist extremists who likewise cannot bear even the slightest hint of opposition to the faith as they see it. Both exhibit the same tendency exemplified by the saying: "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!", liberally laced with ad hominem attacks very particularly on those who might be influential in the argument against them. So 'Fr Martin' thrashes about on 'Holy Smoke' and Fr Blake's blog while the Vicar-General apparently has a go at a priest who is alleged to have a large following but the "wrong" set of beliefs. I do wonder, in a country where we are not exactly flush for priests and bearing in mind what you have said about Roche, Rose, just who it was that decided Lawler was unfit to be a pastor. Certainly his congregation thought he was fine. Perhaps it's the excess of information that flies around these days — 24-hour news; the internet and email. Maybe too many people who really shouldn't be doing that just pick out a set of beliefs and then close their minds. Dangerous stuff.



Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 13:44 Post #13
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Saturday, 16. August 2008, 12:41 I do wonder, in a country where we are not exactly flush for priests and bearing in mind what you have said about Roche, Rose, just who it was that decided Lawler was unfit to be a pastor. Certainly his congregation thought he was fine. My knowledge of Bishop Roche is limited to: His early Catholic formation, in a town where the parishes and schools had high standards of liturgy, regular Eucharistic adoration and Marian devotion, and commitment to preserve the church buildings. The Vicar General, who is the younger of the two, is from the same town, and probably went to the same secondary school. His family - I knew his parents, but cannot claim to have personally known Bishop Roche as a priest, let alone a bishop. The bishop was raised in a typical Catholic family, devoted to their Catholic faith and far from extremist. The local Catholic comprehensive school he attended had an excellent Catholic ethos. Conversations with old friends and family, and - last year - with the priest who has been appointed to co-ordinate the provision of Mass in the Extraordinary Form in the Diocese of Leeds. The last bishop was far from top of the hit parade, I have not heard one word of criticism of Bishop Roche. Judge from this photograph whether Bishop Roche is a liturgical modernist.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 13:51 Post #14
Administrator Posts: 12,275 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Fortunatus Saturday, 16. August 2008, 12:41 I do wonder, in a country where we are not exactly flush for priests and bearing in mind what you have said about Roche, Rose, just who it was that decided Lawler was unfit to be a pastor. Certainly his congregation thought he was fine. His congregation thought he was fine. Who were the congregation? Were they resident in or near the parish? On one blog (I think it is Holy Smoke) a poster says he is the organist at Allerton Bywater, and further states that many of the congregation travel from as far away as York, an hour's journey. I therefore wonder how many of the supporters are local residents, and why the people who travel so far, go to Allerton Bywater in preference to Holy Spirit Heckmondwike or St Marys Batley, both closer and both have Latin Masses with the approval of the bishop. Those two churches are ideal for celebration of traditional liturgy. Allerton Bywater is a tiny little village, not a tourist trap, I wonder how people found out about the Masses there? The Masses at Allerton Bywater are not listed on Latin Mass Society website. All this leads me to wonder Does Father Lawler have a personal following? I have lived in a parish where the assistant priest had a huge following from supporters of Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The parish was known for high attendances, but - the resident parishioners who were being denied their preferences, were attending elsewhere.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Fortunatus	Saturday, 16. August 2008, 15:13 Post #15
Posts: 713 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Certainly it would seem that Fr Lawler has a personal following but if you pursue the Holy Smoke comments further you will also see it suggested (I put it no stronger) that the OF in the vernacular was resulting in reduced congregations. Now it would be a major leap of something other than faith to suggest that this bears out what some people have been saying for the last 30+ years, namely that it was the cack-handed reforms, or at least the cack-handedness that went with them, that accelerated the exodus from the pews. Nevertheless if the majority of the parishioners are happy with either an EF Mass or an OF Mass in Latin with the readings in the vernacular (which is a perfectly legitimate way for a priest to say Mass) then why is there such a fuss from Hinsley Hall? Answer (and I'm guessing): the V-G is one of those who sees anything except OF versus populo in English as a threat. To what I'm not really sure. If you'll forgive a moment of mild crudity there were those clerics who held that anything except the missionary position with the light out was sinful. It's a related mindset. "I don't really understand it; I don't like it. So stop it." I am starting to suspect that the good bishop is not full aware of what is being done in his name.



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