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Finance - Church, Diocese and Parish
Topic Started: Monday, 16. October 2006, 23:34 (2,328 Views)
Deacon Robert
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Oh well, it is simply this, the Diocese and my stepmother's family always gets their cut from the top.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Tuesday, 13. September 2011, 22:06
Oh well, it is simply this, the Diocese and my stepmother's family always gets their cut from the top.
Sorry, I still do not understand. What has cut from the top got to do with me donating goods, or the advice "Rose, nice little church you have there....shame if something should happen to it. Not saying anything, but things get broken."? Are you critical of the manner and motives of my donation of goods in preference to giving money?
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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A parish is meant to be self-supporting; if it is unable to do so then it becomes a mission supported from elsewhere. The diocese draws revenue from parishes to help sustain the diocesan activities and to assist fund central activities such as education and youth activities. The levy paid by parishes is determined by various factors but the main one is the Sunday Mass count conducted during October. One consequence of this is that some priests send in a smaller head-count and so pay a lower levy; thankfully such deception is rare because it has two consequences. Firstly the diocese is less able to support the mission areas and new projects and secondly the National Statistics reflect a lower number of practising Catholics.

There is also a difference between the collection money and the offering given to a priest, by a parishioner as a stipend for a particular mass. The collection money belongs to the Parish; the stipend is part of the priest’s salary and belongs to him. So if you go to father blogs and say could you say a mass for my aunt Freda then should you chose to give him a "Stipend" or "offering" that is a personal matter, you give what you wish. The priest must record the mass intention and the stipend in a logbook and record when it was made and when the mass was said. The priest declares this revenue as part of his tax return. In some diocese priests with a high income from stipends are asked to share with those less fortunate, this is a voluntary scheme and when there are strict rules governing the transfer of stipends.
The other source of revenue that a priest has are the fees obtained for conducting weddings, funerals and baptisms, known as Stole fees. The ammount given as a stole fee varies and in some diocese there are recomended sums but the priest is free to wave these or accept a lower ammount if he chooses. In some diocese these Stole fees are pooled and shared out to ensure that all priests in the diocese receive a minimum basic monthly wage. Again this is an agreement the priests are asked to contribute. Both Stole fees and Stipends are not parish money.
Chrstmas and Easter Collections traditionally belong to the priest but in some diocese a sharing scheme is in place so that those who receive a large sum donate a share into the pot which then goes to priests who don't.
The parish revenue and expenditure should be open for parish scutiny and parish accounts should be published. Canon Law requires that there be a parish finance commitee. This commitee ensure the accounts accessible to the rest of the parish. THe PP has no option in this so if your parish does not have the accounts made public at least once a year then remind then tell the Bishop.
The diocese is dependent on two main strands of revenue the levy from the parishes and returns on invested capital. In the current climate the return form investments is very low hence some bishops have had to ask parish priests to give a higher % of the parish collection.
The offering made at mass into the collection is the one that Bishops and many priests are asking people to increase not the offering they make to the priest as a stipend. In many parishes it is disappointing that if you take the collection and average it out among the adult population it works out in some parishes as less than a pound a head, in other parishes it may be over £10 a head. I have always found that if I tell people what the money is needed for then the people respond generously.
Many parishes "Borrow" money from the Diocese to fund parish building projects and to cover new projects such as providing New Missals and other things which may cause the parish a temporary cash flow problem. However the parish borrows the money at a very low rate of interest and in some cases interest free. If they went to a bank they would have no collateral because the priest cannot mortgage the church or church property. It is also worth noting that the value of church land is artificial in that it has a reduces rateable value and is designated in a special category that means that the Market Value of the Land is reduced because a commercial buyer would have to pay to be granted planning permission for a change of use and this can result in the price of church land being a less than half that of an adjoining plot. Many churches and presbyteries have listed status and so the cost of maintenance is thus higher and the diocese assists by proving legal and architectural experts as well as loans if needed to carry out the work.
It is also worth noting that in recent years many parishes have had to pay large sums of money in order that church halls and social centres are compliant with new regulations in connection with such things as; Disability Access; Fire and Safety; electrical installations and of course child protection.
DIocese in England and Wales are registered with the Charity Commission and so Diocessan accounts must be published in accordance with National as well as Canon law.

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Rose of York
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Penfold
Tuesday, 13. September 2011, 23:36
A parish is meant to be self-supporting; if it is unable to do so then it becomes a mission supported from elsewhere. The diocese draws revenue from parishes to help sustain the diocesan activities and to assist fund central activities such as education and youth activities. The levy paid by parishes is determined by various factors but the main one is the Sunday Mass count conducted during October. One consequence of this is that some priests send in a smaller head-count and so pay a lower levy; thankfully such deception is rare because it has two consequences. Firstly the diocese is less able to support the mission areas and new projects and secondly the National Statistics reflect a lower number of practising Catholics.
The levy in our diocese is not based on head count. Our parish declared head count has remained the same for years. The parish accounts demonstrate that the levy has been the same percentage for years, of total offerings made via the collection, Standing Orders and Gift Aid received from Inland Revenue due to some parishioners completing the necessary form.

The system seems to me fairer than basing the levy on head count. Average giving in one parish will be higher than in another.

Keep the Faith!

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Ned

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin has given a warning about the finances of the Dublin Archdiocese - he speaks bluntly and, as you'll see, he is ready to upset people.

Please read this. What the Archbishop has said here is important, and he has set his stall out clearly; many here will disagree with him, but they will know with what it is that they disagree.

REFLECTIONS ON THE RECENT MEETINGS ON PASTORAL PLANNING AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT IN THE ARCHDIOCESE OF DUBLIN -
Most Rev. Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland
- http://www.dublindiocese.ie/content/finance-area-meetings-address

Finance Presentation - http://www.dublindiocese.ie/sites/default/files/images/Finance%20area%20meetings%20Final%20Final.pdf

and there's a (rather inadequate) press-report here - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1214/1224309043514.html

Regards

Ned
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Rose of York
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How refreshing! An Archbishop has published financial information in an easily understandable format. I wish the bishops of England and Wales would do likewise.
Keep the Faith!

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Ned

Rose of York
Thursday, 15. December 2011, 01:39
How refreshing! An Archbishop has published financial information in an easily understandable format. I wish the bishops of England and Wales would do likewise.
Yes, Rose.

And he's honest enough to go to the root of the problem. Here's a QUOTE -

Everywhere I go in these weeks I am asking people the same question: "Do you really know Jesus?"

It is a question which surprises people to be asked at Church gatherings.

You can see on their faces that they seem to be saying "We would not be here if we did not know Jesus Christ; that is why we come to Church".

At the same time I can see that people are slightly stopped in their tracks and they begin to ask themselves: "What is the Archbishop really saying to me?

* Am I clear in my own mind about who Jesus is and what Jesus Christ really means to me in my life?
* How do I come to know Jesus Christ?
* What do I do to deepen my knowledge of Jesus Christ and my relationship with him?
* Do I really know the scriptures?
* How does my knowledge of Jesus and my relationship with him become an adult relationship, different to that which I learned at school?
UNQUOTE
- http://www.dublindiocese.ie/content/finance-area-meetings-address

Church congregations are collapsing because for instruction in the basic tenets of Christianity has been neglected for forty or fifty years. Every time that a Sunday homily about Padre Pio's bi-location, the miracles at Lourdes or Fatima, Jesuit spirituality, Carmelite spirituality, Salesian spirituality, something in the Daily Mail, is an opportunity lost to talk about Jesus's teachings and Passion.

Not every priest is the same; as Archbishop Martin says, that some parishes are thriving, it varies from plave to place. But in my experience the priest who doesn't base this week's homily on Jesus does similarly most weeks.

Regards

Ned


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Rose of York
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Ned I think you have a point. It is all too easy to think of serving "the parish" or "the Church" and forget, anything and everything we do should be in the service of God. Many a good servant of God has little or no active participation in the parish, other than attendance, yet is beavering away in their daily situation, in secular voluntary work or being available to all who could do with some form of help and at the same time being ready to answer questions about belief and trust in God.

It might do us good as Catholic communities if we had to financially slim down and assess our priorities. The choice might well be to train parish pastoral workers and catechists, hold classes for all, to help us effectively evangelise, or get a new statue to replace the perfectly good one we already have.

It pleases me that Archbishop Mairtin is focusing on future needs with regard to training and involvement of laity, encouraging evangelisation - and preparing people to do just that!
Keep the Faith!

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Emee
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To me knowing Jesus is about loving Him and trusting He loves me and will love me forever - I do struggle with this but I am working on it - and being open, friendly and loving to everyone I come into contact with and trying to remember to pray for my perceived enemies.

I don't really want to make it any more complicated that that - because, although sometimes it is easy to love some people, other times it can be a difficult enough task on its own to love some individuals, without me trying to complicate my faith.
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PJD

"I don't really want to make it any more complicated that that - because, although sometimes it is easy to love some people, other times it can be a difficult enough task on its own to love some individuals, without me trying to complicate my faith."

I agree with that Emee. We are not necessarily required to 'like' one another. Love can be a difficult concept; but I think that Jesus indicated to St. Teresa of Avila that (over and above love) what He wanted was obedience.

PJD
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paul

Rose regarding your windfall. I am walking around with hessian sacking on my feet and the weather is deteriorating. Any chance of a new pair of brogues?!!



Dominus vobiscum
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CARLO
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Rose of York
Thursday, 15. December 2011, 01:39
How refreshing! An Archbishop has published financial information in an easily understandable format. I wish the bishops of England and Wales would do likewise.
Amen to that Rose!

In my opinion Diocesan yearly accounts with some explanatory material should be distributed free each year after Masses for all parishioners who wish to receive a copy. E-mailed versions should be provided for those who wish to receive them in this way.

The current practice in the Parishes I am familiar with requires a personal request to be made to the Parish Priest for 'a copy'. There are no explanatory notes. The workings of Parish Finance Committees are in effect hidden from sight.

Miserere
Have mercy



CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Tuesday, 13. September 2011, 23:36
It is also worth noting that in recent years many parishes have had to pay large sums of money in order that church halls and social centres are compliant with new regulations in connection with such things as; Disability Access; Fire and Safety; electrical installations and of course child protection.
DIocese in England and Wales are registered with the Charity Commission and so Diocessan accounts must be published in accordance with National as well as Canon law.

Expenditure on maintaining electrical installations has been essential for all property owners, domestic and otherwise, since buildings first had electric power. Any parish priest who cared would have had his buildings safe from fire whether or not there were regulations. As for disabled access the standard in Catholic churches is a national disgrace. It should be done for the benefit of people, irrespective of legal requirements. Large service providers with branches (in other words dioceses with many churches and halls) would, if they followed the guidelines, employ suitably qualified experts to inspect all the buildings and make recommendations as to what is necessary and affordable. The diocese as owner of the buildings is responsible. In practise most if not all dioceses just tell the parishes to get on with it, I have seen no end of unlawful, useless and dangerous adaptations. Committees just ask a willing helper to get on with it, not checking how things should be done. Best I have seen yet is a grab rail for a toilet - so far away from the toilet only a giant would have reached it. One of our local churches has a handrail on a flight of steps. It starts on the fourth step, and it is about four feet above ground level. It is obviously an old piece of iron garden fencing.

Why do parishes need to pay huge sums on child protection? A volunteer deals with the paperwork. Guidelines for persons working with children are available, in writing, and they are easy to understand.

Penfold
 
Diocese in England and Wales are registered with the Charity Commission and so Diocessan accounts must be published in accordance with National as well as Canon law.
Courtesy demands they be made available, in shortened form, to contributors to the charity. Not everybody has access to the internet so they will not be able to read them on the Charity Commission website and it is not unusual for diocesan accounts to fun to over 50 pages, therefore they are not ideal for the person who just wants basic information. I wonder what percentage of Mass attenders are told the accounts are available on the website of the Charity Commission? Dioceses obey the letter of the law, not the spirit. My bishop made an announcement of a loss, told all parishes to make sure we all knew about it, did not mention it equated to one third of one per cent of income (3 quid for every thousand) and he had not made any announcement in the several consecutive years when annually, income exceeded expenditure by a seven figure sum, i.e. a few million pounds.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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This was written by an inner city priest

Do follow the links in the article, very interesting.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=20880

Quote:
 
Viewpoint: "Growing in Faith" - money-changers in the Temple
By: Inner City Priest
Posted: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:25 pm

You would imagine that this has something to do with religious faith. It is not. It is the name of a fund-raising campaign sold by an American company. Several English dioceses have used it and found themselves better off financially as a result.

Westminster diocese has tried it in several parishes. Recently a letter came from the Archbishop. Significant, because the odds are that if it had come straight from the diocesan financial secretary office the clergy would have stood up as one man (still) and lynched him. The message is that a campaign committee had decided, wow, that it works and that all parishes should go for it. No question of consulting the parishes or their clergy. It has been decided by a pre-vetted campaign committee, and that's it. Par for the course, these days.

What's it for? We're aiming at millions, partly to keep retired clergy, partly to maintain the seminary and pay for students in other seminaries, partly to pay for a recently founded organisation called CARITAS for social work. No discussion over how much each category needs or whether there might be other ways of paying for them.

So that justifies the religiosity and phoniness of the campaign title which properly belongs to a catechetical programme. The method of fundraising, however, goes way beyond what has up till now been regarded as acceptable. The clergy are to identify the biggest givers in the parish and visit them to ask for a financial commitment over five years. How to identify them? By inspecting the planned giving records.

Planned giving is a perfectly decent and sensible system of regular offerings to the parish, which for the sake of gift aid requires the amount to be recorded. For decades parishioners using planned giving were guaranteed anonymity. Every parish had someone who kept these records, but a big part of the scheme was that the parish priest would not be able to see how much each person gave. That was reserved to the co-ordinator. That protection is now to be abandoned.

And you're not safe if you're lapsed but thought to be well-heeled. In the presentation for the scheme, such people were also proposed as suitable targets. Never mind getting to Mass: just cough up and your charity will be rewarded. Lordy.

And of course we clergy would benefit by having these meaningful discussions with wealthier parishioners. It would get us out visiting (on the blithe assumption that we're not doing that already). Good for our souls.

Growing in Cash, perhaps. Another wheeze suggested earlier for fund-raising was to have statues of locally popular saints. You have Italians in the parish? Stick up a statue of St Rita - works wonders. Just when Barclays are in bad odour for fiddling with rates and now HSBC (the diocese's bank) are shown up as money-launderers and worse, this is not a great time to get into moral blackmail or arm-twisting for the diocesan coffers.

Read more: http://davidawalter.blogspot.co.uk/


Letter from a parishioner

The Inner city priest expresses his disgust, on his blog
Quote:
 
"Growing in Faith" - the money-changers in the Temple
You would imagine that this has something to do with religious faith. It is not. It is the name of a fund-raising campaign sold by an American company. Several English dioceses have used it and found themselves better off financially as a result. Westminster diocese has tried it in several parishes. Recently a letter came from the Archbishop. Significant, because the odds are that if it had come straight from the diocesan financial secretary office the clergy would have stood up as one man (still) and lynched him. The message is that a campaign committee had decided, wow, that it works and that all parishes should go for it. No question of consulting the parishes or their clergy. It has been decided by a pre-vetted campaign committee, and that's it. Par for the course, these days.


What's it for? We're aiming at millions, partly to keep retired clergy, partly to maintain the seminary and pay for students in other seminaries, partly to pay for a recently founded organisation called CARITAS for social work. No discussion over how much each category needs or whether there might be other ways of paying for them.


So that justifies the religiosity and phoniness of the campaign title which properly belongs to a catechetical programme. The method of fundraising, however, goes way beyond what has up till now been regarded as acceptable. The clergy are to identify the biggest givers in the parish and visit them to ask for a financial commitment over five years. How to identify them? By inspecting the planned giving records.


Planned giving is a perfectly decent and sensible system of regular offerings to the parish, which for the sake of gift aid requires the amount to be recorded. For decades parishioners using planned giving were guaranteed anonymity. Every parish had someone who kept these records, but a big part of the scheme was that the parish priest would not be able to see how much each person gave. That was reserved to the co-ordinator. That protection is now to be abandoned.


And you're not safe if you're lapsed but thought to be well-healed. In the presentation for the scheme, such people were also proposed as suitable targets. Never mind getting to Mass: just cough up and your charity will be rewarded. Lordy.


And of course we clergy would benefit by having these meaningful discussions with wealthier parishioners. It would get us out visiting (on the blithe assumption that we're not doing that already). Good for our souls.


Growing in Cash, perhaps. Another wheeze suggested earlier for fund-raising was to have statues of locally popular saints. You have Italians in the parish? Stick up a statue of St Rita - works wonders. Just when Barclays are in bad odour for fiddling with rates and now HSBC (the diocese's bank) are shown up as money-launderers and worse, this is not a great time to get into moral blackmail or arm-twisting for the diocesan coffers.


Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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http://217.8.242.153/latest-news.php?id=3726

http://www.growinginfaithtogether.ca/Testimonials.html

http://www.fundraising.co.uk/vacancies/2012/07/19/campaign-director

This "Story" has been rumbling along since last year. I have no view or comment to add.

Edited by Penfold, Friday, 27. July 2012, 10:12.
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