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Finance - Church, Diocese and Parish
Topic Started: Monday, 16. October 2006, 23:34 (2,331 Views)
Rose of York
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Derekap
Nov 29 2007, 11:52 AM
If for the purpose of discussion, the Bishop of Leeds takes on Middlesbrough and Hallam it may save two Bishops but the demands and problems of the three former dioceses remain the same.  I don't think somehow a Bishop will earn nearly as much as a professional lay administrator. Lay administrators will still need an office even if they could do some work at home on the computer - bearing in mind confidentiallity of course.  Are present Bishops' offices in large houses in valuable property areas?  We must also bear in mind that unless on visitation to a parish Bishops can  offer Holy Mass in the routine manner in their cathedrals.

Rose's suggestion that Deans become Bishops to administer Confirmation is I think unnecessary as priests can already do so on their Bishop's authority and instruction.

Only one bishop would need to attend meetings of the Bishops' Conference and Ad Limina visit to Rome.

We have Monsignors in charge of buildings maintenance, compliance with listed building legislation, obtaining planning permission, dealing with health and safety, child protection, disability access. They don't know how to do it as well as professionals, and can make costly mistakes, even risking costly litigation. We get the standard we pay for. The office buildings are there, now. Some could be kept, and some sold. There seems to be no problem about closing churches.

I selected a diocese at random, and checked their audit fee. £26,000 for one year. Three dioceses amalgamated would not have to pay three times as much.

The only problem I envisage is empire building - excessive administration, as happened when cottage hospitals were closed, and district hospitals built, and they in turn made way for regional hospitals.

A bishop's role is, I think, to teach. He does this by pastoral letter. He also has concerns for clergy welfare. He is responsible to The Holy Father and the civil authorities for the governance of his diocese. What else is exclusive to bishops? I do not know.
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Oct 14 2007, 11:39 AM
Our Archdioces laumched today an appeal for £8.7m over the next 5 years. The appeal has 3 purposes

1. Putting the support for retired priests on a sound financial footing
2. Investing in the pastoral strategy ( teaching, training of lay and religious and employment of professional help to spread the Gospel)
3. Restoration of St David's Cathedral, Cardiff.

We were given a very professionally produced pamphlet to back up a talk by our parish organiser volunteer. The idea is to deal direct with the Archdiocesan Campaign Office with our pledges etc with the parishes being used to disseminate info rather than to handle the cash side.

The pamphlet says that we will be enlisting aid from other dioceses which have run similar campaigns successfully. Does anyone have any experience of such a campaign?

John

Further information is available on the Archdiocesan Website. Here are a couple of snippets:

Quote:
 
 
Embracing the Future: Our Needs to 2020

On Sunday, October 7, 2007 , Archbishop Peter Smith announced the launch of a five-year fund-raising campaign, entitled “ Embracing the Future: Our Needs to 2020 ”. In planning it, the Archdiocese looked at its principal needs over the next fifteen years and identified three major Campaign goals


Quote:
 
This Campaign is unlike any ever held before in this Archdiocese. Although one-time donations will be gratefully accepted, the Campaign asks that people consider pledging a monthly or quarterly donation over the next five years and/or leaving a legacy. The Archdiocese is hoping for a high level of participation, which is more important to the Campaign's success than the amount of any individual pledge.

The Campaign is being conducted largely through the parishes, supported by a very small team at Archbishop's House and Campaign Leaders in each parish. However, contributions are welcome from anyone at any time. Special brochures, along with pledge cards, are available in English or Welsh and can be downloaded from the website. Full instructions are provided therein but you can also contact the Campaign Office on 02920 220411 for further information.


Link
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Rose of York
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The Archdiocese of Cardiff does well to plan ahead, and to put the bishop's flock in the picture.

First Goal – Clergy Welfare Fund

The target is £5million for the support of sick and retired priests. My initial reaction was "that seems a lot" but, at 5% that sum would raise £250,000 per year. On second thoughts, the number of active priests decreases while retired priests increase. Some will need residential care, some will end their days in nursing homes. Active priests who are taken ill might need to go away to convalesce. Considering the relatively low level of allowances for active clergy, they deserve to be well cared for in sickness and old age.

Second Goal – Pastoral Strategy Support

£2 million to pay for professional resources to support the re-organisation of the Archdiocese? I wonder how much will be raised from the sale of redundant land and properties.

Third Goal – Renovation of St. David's Cathedral

A cool £2 million!

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Not sure how well the appeal is going yet Rose. As far as I am aware no reports issued yet. I have heard informally that there was a decent rush of one-off donations at first but not the take-up of regular donation pledges that had been hoped for. But this may be out of date news and was unofficial anyway. I'll update when any news as i think there will be similar campaigns elsewhere.
John
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Deleted User
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See preceding posts about the Cardiff and Hereford Archdiocese's appeal. The Archdiocesan paper las t month gave the first information about progress and there were conflicting messages. The amount pledged is £1.1m so far and in an article in the paper this is regarded as poor and the writer castigates us for this and points up the traditionally poor record of Catholics in regular collections and so on. However, the official committee minutes of the Archdiocesan Trustees records this as a "good start".

Two ways of looking at this , I suppose. £1.1m is not to be sneezed at but it falls well short of target. I think the article writer is probably closer to the mark in his/her assessment in that a good start is everything in these things and we are unlikely to recover to the target position now.


John
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Rose of York
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John, what is the average Mass attendance in the Diocese? It will be interesting to calculate the average pledge, per head.
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I see secular press reports that there are allegations--strongly denied--about financial irregularities at Lourdes. The priest concerned and his bishop deny that there is anything wrong.

Whatever the outcome, I hope (vainly I know) that any
wrongdoing by an individual is not used as a stick to beat the Church.

Interestingly, the article said that the controversy had exposed the animosity between the upper part of Lourdes town and the shrine -based activities below. According to the author the former resents the way the latter's activities dominate all aspects of life in the town.


John
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Monday, 14. July 2008, 11:45
I see secular press reports that there are allegations--strongly denied--about financial irregularities at Lourdes. The priest concerned and his bishop deny that there is anything wrong.

Whatever the outcome, I hope (vainly I know) that any
wrongdoing by an individual is not used as a stick to beat the Church.
Stricter standards of accountability are necessary.

According to reports, the priest in charge of the sanctuaries of Lourdes, was being investigated by financial police after a computer highlighted suspicious deposits in his personal account, amounting to £360,000. He claims the cash was a donation from an ageing worshipper. That may be true.

I question whether there should a limit above which amounts received as gifts by persons, clerical or pay, must be declared and registered. It is common for Catholics to give small cash gifts to priests, donor and recipient are entitled to privacy - up to a point.
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Fortunatus

Quote:
 
Whatever the outcome, I hope (vainly I know) that any
wrongdoing by an individual is not used as a stick to beat the Church.
Just as I keep hoping (vainly I know) that any wrongdoing is not used as a stick to beat the Monarchy or the Tory Party or the Labour Party or any other party or Local Government or ............
Sorry, John. Join the real world. Individual errors by people who we perceive as being 'role models' or in positions of trust and/or authority or as members of such organisations (ie: politicians, royals, community leaders, priests) are always seen as institutional. Perhaps wrongly but for sure inevitably.

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I agree that this is the way the media behave Fortunatus but I don't think it is inevitable. I know that if , for example, the local vicar runs away with the housekeeper, most people don't assume all vicars are the same. That is the real world I think. People shrug their shoulders and say something like "Ah well, these things happen". The difficulty arises when a vice is seen to be widespread and we all know the obvious example. But I think we can fight off individual misdemeanours OK. In the case I raised in Lourdes we have no proof of any wrongdoing, of course.

John
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Rose of York
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http://www.indcatholicnews.com/stats324.html

For interest, information on giving in the Church of England.

I think the average giving in Catholic churches is a miserly £2 to £3 per week compared to £5.38 in the C of E. in 2006.

Independent Catholic News
 
Average weekly giving by Church of England parishioners increased to £5.38 in 2006. Statistics released today show that direct giving to parish churches averaged £5.38 per electoral roll member per week and tax-efficient giving increased to an average of £8.64 per subscriber per week (up from £5.08 and £8.26 respectively in 2005). The number of parishioners subscribing to tax-efficient regular giving through Gift Aid rose to a further record of 527,000.

"Direct giving to parishes continues to increase year on year, with a five per cent increase in weekly giving and a similar increase in the tax-efficient giving of more than half a million people regularly Gift-Aiding to the Church," said Dr John Preston, the Church's National Stewardship and Resources Officer. "Church members give generously to charitable causes compared with the population at large and it is far too early to tell if the current economic turbulence is affecting giving, but the Church is grateful for the committed support given by so many to their local church.. While our givers on average donate just over three per cent of their incomes to the Church, that is still somewhere short of the five per cent of disposable income recommended by the General Synod since 1978.

"The five per cent aim was based on the Christian tradition of tithing or giving away 10 per cent of income and the recommendation was to give half of that to the Church in thanks for God's gifts and half to other charitable works."

The total income of Parochial Church Councils in 2006, the figures show, rose to £826million. Total expenditure rose to £792million, of which more than £46million was devoted to charitable giving by the PCCs to other charities and mission organisations, 7.5 per cent of their recurring expenditure of £618million.



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Thanks Rose it is very interesting to see these figures. Certainly, any figures I have seen for Catholic giving are much lower per head than these C of E ones. Giving is only one aspect of Church life , of course, but this should give us pause for thought. Maybe the Anglican Communion is not so near terminal collapse as some have predicted in other threads. Maybe their loyal followers get on a bit better with practicalities rather than arguing obscure theological points while holding on to the pennies!

John
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Ned

THere's a story on page 18 of today's Daily Telegraph 'Churches threatened by huge rise in water bills'. I can't see it on the net yet, but there are similar reports, for example - a report in the Bolton News http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/3994162.MP_calls_for_review_of__unfair__water_charges_for_churches/

These charges will be for surface drainage and calculated on the surface area of the church grounds, even if the surface area concerned is a green space that actually absorbs water. Some little rural churches, on account of their graveyards etc.will be facing bills of up to £5,000 a year.

All this of course is on top of other tax changes, for example and as I mentioned a few months ago, churches are now liable to pay business rates on those parts of the church complex not regularly open to the public.

There is a hidden Modernist agenda here. In the US anti-religion campaigners openly campaign for the abolition of all tax concessions given to religious groups. Here in Britain it's being done quietly.
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PJD


There is a hidden Modernist agenda here

Perhaps at heart more likely a financial agenda?

PJD
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Rose of York
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Ned
Friday, 26. December 2008, 18:32
THere's a story on page 18 of today's Daily Telegraph 'Churches threatened by huge rise in water bills'. I can't see it on the net yet, but there are similar reports, for example - a report in the Bolton News http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/3994162.MP_calls_for_review_of__unfair__water_charges_for_churches/

These charges will be for surface drainage and calculated on the surface area of the church grounds, even if the surface area concerned is a green space that actually absorbs water. Some little rural churches, on account of their graveyards etc.will be facing bills of up to £5,000 a year.

All this of course is on top of other tax changes, for example and as I mentioned a few months ago, churches are now liable to pay business rates on those parts of the church complex not regularly open to the public.

There is a hidden Modernist agenda here. In the US anti-religion campaigners openly campaign for the abolition of all tax concessions given to religious groups. Here in Britain it's being done quietly.
There is an online petition to Downing Street, about water rates for churches. currently with 38,205 signatures
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ChurchWaterBills/


Churches have always been liable for business rates on parish clubs, and rooms devoted purely to social functions, though some parishes don't bother or don't know about it. The rules are quite complicated. How many parish finance committees know they must register for VAT if the receipts from sales, dances, concerts etc are above the threshold, which is currently £67000 pa? Parish clubs that exist solely to finance themselves (ie club profits going to the club, not to parish funds) are taxable. Some parishes got caught on thst one a few years ago. That is what comes of people not consulting the parishioners who work in that field.
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