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Finance - Church, Diocese and Parish
Topic Started: Monday, 16. October 2006, 23:34 (2,332 Views)
Rose of York
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Derek, do you remember what happened when Bishop Heenan arrived in the Leeds Diocese? One of the first things he did was to order the cessation of the door collections on arrival, and second collections that were not for special causes. He said one opportunity to donate to the parish was enough.

In our family, at the age of 14 we got a rise in pocket money, and our parents told us, we must set something aside for the collection, as a preparation for facing our responsibilities when we grew up and received a wage. They also instructed us to give to the Poppy Appeal during Remembrance Week.
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MickCook
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Given that the great American dollar is worth less than 50p (depending on the current exchange rate), that would perhaps be the least amount tossed into the collection plate (or basket) on Sunday. Other amounts would be $5, $10, $20 (with $50 and $100 left to the annoyingly rich) and there's no clink of coins going in the plate (or basket). Yep, there's the second collection after communion - but in some churches they wait a while to let people get settled. That second collection can be annoying, just after receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. It's the one time I want to have my chat with him - and I like to listen from time to time to what he, through the Holy Spirit, has to say. That plate is a distraction - but it's only momentary. At least the priest will warn us of a second collection beforehand.

:)
Mick
The Cook Companies
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Derekap
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I heard a number of stories about "The Cruel See" but I didn't know Dr Heenan had made a very practical and constructive decision re Collections.
Derekap
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PJD

I remember as a child our Parish priest saying he didn't want coppers anymore.

Nothing to do with policemen!

PJD
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Derekap
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Perhaps he didn't realise three pennies was the equivalent of a thruppenny bit.
Derekap
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MickCook
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I should have mentioned that if Fr. Cassidy sees a lot of people attending a particular Mass, he will say something like, "I think we'll have a second collection today, I need a season ticket for the Green Bay Packers!"

PS. I'm not joking - he has actually said this!

:)
Mick
The Cook Companies
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maklavan

Emee
Nov 24 2007, 12:23 AM
What I really don't like is the second collection being whisked around just after Holy Communion when I am trying to have a few quiet moments with my Lord Jesus. I know it's uncharitable, but sometimes if I am trying to pray I'll close my eyes and ignore the plate... I do try to make up for it financially later on. I just object to the timing - sometimes I've just returned to my seat and am just starting to pray and the plate is beside me. If one can't find the peace to pray just after Holy Communion when Jesus is actually living inside a person when can we? It is so important this time be a time of quietness and reverence. I don't feel I am sinning by occasionally ignoring the plate - and I don't always ignore it, again it depends on the timing.

But I digress, this thread is for the Sign of Peace...

How quaint! I thought this aberration had become extinct long ago. I didn't come across it in Africa, or in the UK. the practice of having collections on exiting actually works, and does not impair the amounts raised. In some areas, the Ordinary officially limits the number of second collections that can be taken up in any given year.
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Rose of York
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I witnessed a parish priest politely asking the collectors to take the special collection, for an appeal, in the porch after Mass. One of the collectors told the priest "We always do it during the closing hymn, Father" The priest explained that the hymn is a prayer, and collections should not take place while the congregation are praying. The man stood up, and told him "This is how we do it here. We always have done." The priest made some remarks like "Well, now I know who is in charge of this parish", and instructed the organist to continue. The collection continued. I refrained from putting money in, and handed my contribution to the priest, after Mass.
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Rose of York
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In another thread, Timothy made a suggestion:

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Greater interdependency is needed between parishes, as it is obvious some parishes will get greater donations than others, and yet their costs will be reasonably similar.


We could look at it two ways:

Two neighbouring parishes, one gets greater donations than others, yet their costs will be reasonably similar.

or

Two neighbouring parishes, their incomes are reasonably similar, yet their costs will vary greatly.

Two parishes I know are a few miles apart, but "next door neighbours" because they are in a sparsley populated area. Each has one Mass at the weekend, one has Saturday Vigil and the other has Sunday morning Mass. People tend to go to one church or the other, depending upon which Mass fits in with work and other commitments.

There is a problem. They have similar sized congregations, and the collections are more or less the same. One church is modern, in very good condition. The other is Victorian, and in a bad state, structurally. That parish needs more money than it can possibly raise.

Would it not make sense to have sub deaneries, made up of local groups of parishes, pooling their resources, those with surplus money helping the others? The main problem I see is rivalry. Members of a parish with lots of fund raising efforts could be resentful if they were subsidising a parish where nobody made an effort.

Dioceses could help, by giving a levy free allowance. All parishes pay the same percentage towards Diocesan expenses. Why can we not have a staggered levy, similar to the Inland Revenue tax bands? First £10,000 per annum levy free, £5000 at 10% and the balance at a higher rate? Another interesting point - the levy is on collections and gift aid. Nothing is levied on interest received, which in some cases is higher than the collection.

I think our bishop determines the percentage by chucking dart at a board.
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PJD

Two neighbouring parishes, their incomes are reasonably similar, yet their costs will vary greatly.

Timothy raises an interesting point here. Avoiding 'neighbouring' - what about some parishes (out in the sticks we townies call it) are very poor; and in the towns they can be very rich.

PJD
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Rose of York
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PJD
Nov 28 2007, 07:51 PM
Two neighbouring parishes, their incomes are reasonably similar, yet their costs will vary greatly.

Timothy raises an interesting point here. Avoiding 'neighbouring' - what about some parishes (out in the sticks we townies call it) are very poor; and in the towns they can be very rich.

PJD

It is often the other way around. Of the three churches closest to my home, only two paid for the land on which their church was built. The other two had land donated by "old Catholic families". It goes back to the days of "gentry" looking after the people whose labours had made them into gentry.
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Derekap
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Rose wrote:

"Would it not make sense to have sub deaneries, made up of local groups of parishes, pooling their resources, those with surplus money helping the others?"

In some dioceses parishes are already grouped into Pastoral Areas. So far they haven't amalgamated the finances but I expect they will in the not too distant future.

A long long time go I remember learning that parishes collecting money for its new school or church instead of keeping the money sent it to the bishop who then allocated use of the whole money for a school or church rather than a parish keeping it to itself and the money lying idle for years until the required mount was reached.
Derekap
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CARLO
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With respect to our Bishops in the Uk there does seem to be a fairly strong if not compelling case for cutting down the number of Dioceses and moving to a structure based on what are now the Archdioceses. The result would produce efficiencies and financial economies and a smaller more sensible number of Bishops. It would also free up some Clergy to assist in our Parishes.

A letter setting all this out in far better detail appeared in the Catholic Herald a few weeks ago but does not seem to have provoked much of a response. The matter has also been raised in the past and produced a deafening silence from the Bishops.

In all honesty when I look at the published diary commitments of many of our Bishops I do wonder whether we have too many of them?

Please don't take this as any sort of personal attack on the Bishops - it is certainly not intended as such.


Pax vobiscum
Peace be with you all


CARLO
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Rose of York
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CARLO
Nov 28 2007, 09:31 PM
In all honesty when I look at the published diary commitments of many of our Bishops I do wonder whether we have too many of them?

Please don't take this as any sort of personal attack on the Bishops - it is certainly not intended as such.



Carlo, I agree wholeheartedly. If we had fewer bishops, we could dispose of a lot of office premises, invest the proceeds and set the interest aside for payment of salaries for professionals to take on many secular tasks currently done by junior senior clergy, who in turn would be free to concentrate on what they should do best - offering Mass, administering sacraments and giving pastoral care.

Audit fees for a diocese cost thousands. A lot of money could be saved by having Dioceses based at Westminster, Birmingham and Leeds, with perhaps one in Bristol or Portsmouth.

Could deans be consecrated as bishops, and do the confirmations in their deaneries?
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Derekap
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If for the purpose of discussion, the Bishop of Leeds takes on Middlesbrough and Hallam it may save two Bishops but the demands and problems of the three former dioceses remain the same. I don't think somehow a Bishop will earn nearly as much as a professional lay administrator. Lay administrators will still need an office even if they could do some work at home on the computer - bearing in mind confidentiallity of course. Are present Bishops' offices in large houses in valuable property areas? We must also bear in mind that unless on visitation to a parish Bishops can offer Holy Mass in the routine manner in their cathedrals.

Rose's suggestion that Deans become Bishops to administer Confirmation is I think unnecessary as priests can already do so on their Bishop's authority and instruction.
Derekap
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