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Finance - Church, Diocese and Parish
Topic Started: Monday, 16. October 2006, 23:34 (2,334 Views)
Rose of York
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PJD just for an experiment I am going to take a look at the abbreviated accounts of a few dioceses in England and Wales (tomais can do Scotland

:bl: )

1 South
1 North
1 in the London area
1 Midlands

to get some idea how much they made or lost in two years, and how much Corporation Tax they would have paid, if they did not have charitable status.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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PJD

In case some members are not sure what we are talking about:

Clubs, associations and societies are taxed as businesses, unless they have the status of Registered Charity So, if churches lost their charitable status, they would have to pay Corporation Tax. By not charging us, the state (ie the public) subsidise the Church. The system will backfire on Christians when we all wake up and realise that our taxes also subside mosques and "funny" churches that cream tithes off people and give little back in return.

I made a rough calculation, and estimated the combined subsidy benefitting two small dioceses (Hexham and Plymouth) and two large ones (Westminster and Birmingham) would by in the region of £4 million in one year. How much would it be for the whole country? Religious orders get their subsidies, so do private schools.

There are also grants available for historic churches and VAT relief in some circumstances, though VAT is payable in full, on most parish and diocesan outlay.

Browsing accounts I was taken aback by the vast sums invested.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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PJD
Oct 19 2006, 04:37 PM
If the population withdrew all these favours, might Catholicism be better off in the long run, leaner, more fitter, and certainly more spiritually alive?

I wonder how many have thought this out properly.

PJD

We would survive by having greater incentive to raise money. "Dead as doornail" parishes would have no choice but to start having regular social functions. Summer Galas would be heavily advertised to attract Joe Public. Lonely people would have greater opportunity to get out and make friends with parishioners. Non Catholics would notice we are not just a bunch of over pious oddities who never have fun. Parishioners would ask Father why the finance committee was comprised of people who had no idea how to budget, or handle large sums of money.

If the worst came to the worst and the parish had hardly any income, the bishop would be the loser, because the less money we have, the less he can take from us. He would not be able to afford all the silly seminars, and that would release our parish priests to fulfil their hopes and dreams of looking after us.

The Church would be more spiritually alive because clergy would go to the parish functions, and get the message - that they have more than ten willing parishioners, there are a few hundred, and it might be possible to arrange rotas of people willing to give up one hour a week to make sure the church remains open during daylight hours. With a bit of luck, some young lad might say "Father can I learn to be a server please."

Not exactly rocket science is it? I have seen it done. A wealthy man, half owner (by inheritance) of a grocery chain, arrived in a parish - as parish priest. He saw what a one eyed hole it was, and plunged the parish into debt (restoration costs) and urged the parishioners to get some social life arranged to raise the money. That parish boomed, spiritually, socially, and financially, and has never looked back since.

Come the revolution, we'll all be holy and happy.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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I wonder why we have so many dioceses in the UK? Birmingham, Westminster and Southwark have high populations therefore large congregations, and (query??) less of a crisis re priests/parishes ratio. Fewer dioceses would reduce the requirement for bishops, and we would have lower administrative costs. Fewer bishops would mean, more priests ministering in parishes.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Rose:

Well, reading your posts, you seem to be doing the work I am unqualified to do. You should have started up this topic (smile).

However, the points you raise seem to me to be the tip of the financial iceberg. Correct me if I am wrong please. Just to list more starters I had in mind:

1. Tax rebates on all parish collections – substantial amounts of money paid out to parish priests each year I can assure you.

2. Vat you have mentioned. But what about local authority rates.

3. Now the net amounts put into the Sunday plate coming from those who are either retired, unemployed, on social security benefits of whatever kind. Whichever way you look at it the state (and thus the public) are donating. True not all of it, for some allowance is made regarding ‘spending money’ – but this would be ‘nominal’.

Again the net amounts put into the Sunday plate coming from those who are comfortably off – where did they get it from in the first place? At a guess mostly by virtue of having the poor in place in society in the first place. True again, not all of this applies, for some sheer hard work in the past = the contribution value.

And so we could go on; can’t think anymore for the moment.

Nevertheless if the aggregate at the end of all calculations came to about 75% of total input I wouldn’t be at all surprised. And if so it wouldn’t be an uncharitable exercise – just giving due recognition to the part the general public plays in the upholding of Christian tradition.

So adding together the public input, then adding the free labour supplied by churchgoers, we come almost to the end of a 100% line.

And that doesn’t even start on the charities i.e. who for example are the true benefactors of CAFOD and the like. Or the religious Orders who supply expensive facilities for conferences and innumerable examples of extravagancies seemingly so. So it goes on………

Finally who contributes the ‘higher-in-proportion’; the lower paid of course.

Am I at QED Rose; or rather both of us = QED?

[This country is truly a Christian peoples!!]

PJD

[Read in the papers some time last week that the recent make poverty history campaign raised 19m, out of which 16m went to paying venue expenses. Don’t know if that was true though – Tomais might know]

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Karin
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Karin
We have 2-3 diocese per state here (sometimes more and sometimes less). Some diocese can have several hundred parishes and there are lots of seminaries, some diocesan sponsored and some self-sustaining. Our attendance is strong for the most part, but the clustering process has actually helped in the long run. It did, however, make for many hurt feelings in the beginning and there are still some who do not approve, but when you deal with logistics, the miriad of small rural parishes, etc., hopefully by making use of the facilities in other ways helps to ease the burden.

And the US just hit the 300,000 million mark this week. I think it averages out that 25% of the US population is (or says they are) Catholic, so that's a LOT of folks. I'm sure that figure varies from state to state and how many of those people actually DO attend church regularly?
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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What would you like to see, PJD? Do you think Churches and other Faith organisations should lose charitable status?
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PJD

I'm not sure Rose, but I have never liked the idea that whatever is put into the plate on Sunday collection attracts a 30p in the £ rebate from the Inland Revenue. It doesn't bother me because I don't pay tax, but what bothers me is if those in my position claim it anyway.

PJD
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Rose of York
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Do be cautious when asked to give to charities. Apparent association with the Church is not always what it appears to be.

Read, and be shocked.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/inves...ts/bobparry.asp

If the charity has no backing from Diocese or an Order, it would pay to be very careful and check on their activities.
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Gerry2
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Rose -

read and was shocked.

(But can't find an emoticon for it)

Gerry2
Love is as strong as death (Songs 8:6)
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Gerry2
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denis
Oct 19 2006, 10:56 PM
Is'nt it our duty as Catholics to try and follow the teachings of the Church esp the 6 Commandments of the Church, one of which we, are are bound to contribute to the support of our Pastors. I do'nt think Subsidising comes into at all

The Catechism of the Catholic Church lists the 5 precepts of the Church here.

Gerry2
Love is as strong as death (Songs 8:6)
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Rose of York
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Gerry2, it doesn't surprise me. The Charity Commission website publishes results of inquiries. A high proportion are supposedly for religious purposes. You can read of trustees using charitable funds for personal, high quality cars and even houses for their own use. It is rare for bodies connected with mainstream churches to appear on the list, but it has happened.

A couple of years ago a person I liked and respected vanished from the scene. He was well known for his stirling work for the homeless. I could not think why he had left the district without saying goodbye to anyone, until I saw the charity founded by him, in the Inquiry list. The "house for the homeless" was being used by him, for his own business use, as a Guest House. The money had gone - unlawfully paid to his company, for "renovations to the hostel".
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Rose of York
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denis
Oct 19 2006, 10:56 PM
Is'nt it our duty as Catholics to try and follow the teachings of the Church esp the 6 Commandments of the Church, one of which we, are are bound to contribute to the support of our Pastors. I do'nt think Subsidising comes into at all

Denis, this is about State subsidies, via tax concessions parishes and church organisations.
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Rose
I believe we should get away from the idea of priests having some sort of supreme power in a parish. I think Advisory Councils should be set up as Parish Councils with the ability to decide on parish matters. The PP would be Chair(man!) and would retain responsibility for purely religious matters while other responsibilities would be directed by the Council.

John
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Rose of York
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The parish priest is responsible to the Bishop, who is in turn responsible to the Pope, for ensuring Canon Law is observed.

The same person, the parish priest, is responsible, under Canon Law, to the Bishop (in his capacity as Chairman of Trustees of a Registered Charity) for ensuring civil law is observed.

So, the pp wears two "hats". It is he who carries the can, so committees are advisory. Surely some responsibilities can be delegated?

In one of my "past" parishes we had an election for a parish finance committee. We were given voting papers, with a list of names. I abstained because I knew nothing about any of the candidates. Later I learnt that none of them had any relevant experience.

How about having candidates provide information about their competence for serving on finance committees and parish pastoral councils? It would help if the information was accompanied by a photograph to enable identification.

Keep the Faith!

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