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Finance - Church, Diocese and Parish
Topic Started: Monday, 16. October 2006, 23:34 (2,327 Views)
Angus Toanimo
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Quote:
 
Bishop's £10m debt sparks Rome inquiry

By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent
The [London] Telegraph
(Filed: 14/10/2006)


The Vatican has demanded financial details from every Roman Catholic diocese in England and Wales after Church bureaucrats left a bishop £10.2 million in debt.

Archbishop Faustino Sainz Munoz, the Pope's ambassador to Britain, has asked local bishops for evidence to show that their accounts conform with Church and secular law.

Rome's intervention comes after the Bishop of Lancaster, the Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue, was forced to apologise to churchgoers in March after he discovered that his central administration was "eating up" money belonging to parishes and trust funds without permission.

Much of the money had been spent on ambitious projects, such as an inter-faith centre in Preston, and on staff salaries.

The Vatican now wants to ensure that this does not happen again. Archbishop Sainz Munoz said in a letter to the bishops — leaked to the Catholic magazine The Tablet — that the Vatican wished to be informed of "the financial structures and of the situation obtaining in every diocese".

The Lancaster case arose out of confusion between civil law, which treats a diocese and its parishes as a single unit, and canon law, which sees a parish as a distinct body within the diocese with its own assets.

Believing the diocese to be "asset rich", lay staff in Lancaster used money from parish coffers or from funds ring-fenced for other purposes for nearly 15 years.

Bishop O'Donoghue said: "I was absolutely alarmed. I couldn't believe it."

He told Vatican officials "that I was aware that we had a very large staff and couldn't understand how we were funding it".

He added: "I have had a [Vatican] letter of commendation on the way the diocese has approached the issues and how we have set about rectifying them."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/14/wbish14.xml]Link ://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...e]Link[/color]

Quote:
 
Bishop O'Donoghue said: "I was absolutely alarmed. I couldn't believe it."


Pull the other one! :rolleyes:
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Oct 16 2006, 11:34 PM
Quote:
 
Bishop O'Donoghue said: "I was absolutely alarmed. I couldn't believe it."


Pull the other one! :rolleyes:

Bishop O'Donohue has no need to pull legs. Be fair to him, Patrick. He was surprised, after becoming Bishop of Lancaster, to discover what had been going on. Thanks to him, efforts are being made to rectify the situation.

Laity must take some responsibility for the situation. How many members of this forum read the abbreviated diocesan accounts, which should be made available in all parishes?

The Diocese of Lancaster has an excellent online newspaper, The Voice. There is much useful information about this affair on:

The Voice Online January 2006

I will try to explain in lay terms, how Catholic money should be dealt with.

There are restricted and unrestricted funds. If a person bequeaths or donates a sum for a specific purpose, for example "for the maintenance of the fabric of Saint Gemma's Church, Blogsville", those funds are restricted and must not be used for any other purpose. Other, unrestricted, funds, may be used for any lawful purpose.
Dioceses and parishes have restricted funds.

In Canon Law, all assets (mainly buildings and money) of a parish belong to the parish. In English Law (and presumably Scottish Law) a parish is a mere part of a registered charity (Diocesan Trust) and the assets all belong to the Trust.

A registered charity must, by law, appoint trustees, who will take responsibility for responsible housekeeping. In theory they are chosen for their expertise. In practise, its not what you know, its who you know.

Lancaster Diocese, acting under the assumption that it was acceptable to pay Curial bills with any money that belonged to the Diocesan Trust, played havoc with parish money. They were dipping into money that parishes had lodged with the Diocesan Combined Investment Fund, blissfully under the illusion that it would be in safe hands and wisely invested. Some parish current accounts were raided, without the parish priests being consulted. Restricted funds, supposedly earmarked for parish maintenance, were used for Diocesan purposes.

Bishop O'Donohue was not well pleased when he realised large sums owing to parishes might never be repaid.

The moral of this story is, if you are filthy rich, and want to give a thousand pounds to your parish, donate it in goods or services, not in cash. Give the parish £1000, the diocese takes a cut. Pay for the new carpet, some candles, altar breads and a repair to a broken window, and the diocese can't have a penny.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Oct 16 2006, 11:57 PM
Patrick
Oct 16 2006, 11:34 PM
Quote:
 
Bishop O'Donoghue said: "I was absolutely alarmed. I couldn't believe it."


Pull the other one! :rolleyes:

Bishop O'Donohue has no need to pull legs. Be fair to him, Patrick. He was surprised, after becoming Bishop of Lancaster, to discover what had been going on. Thanks to him, efforts are being made to rectify the situation.

Rose,

I wouldn't have said that, if the line I quoted from the article wasn't followed by this one:

Quote:
 
He told Vatican officials "that I was aware that we had a very large staff and couldn't understand how we were funding it".


His tenure as Bishop of Lancaster started on 5th June 2001. Why, in the five years since, has he not realised what was happening?

It appears, from the article, that he only found out what was happening in March this year.



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denis

As this is my Diocese it came as a great shock to us all. All the money was accounted for, but it was a case of overspending, and not managed correctly.
The outcome is that each Parish is now levied 25% of Sunday collections and also had to give money from Parish Accounts with the promise of an I O U which may never be repaid. Five top lay Jobs ( Education. Finance, Building) were dispensed with so we now all have to tighten our belts and get on with it, and the diocese will have to learn by its mistakes.
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Rose of York
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Patrick The Telegraph report what the bishop said, but not when he said it.

The devastating news was announced late in 2005, after auditors had presented a draft report of the accounts for 2004. It is not correct to say nobody knew until March 2006.

As early as January 2006, all parishioners in Lancaster knew about the situation. The Trustees gave a report to parishioners, during that month.

The problem was, for some years, a person who did not fully understand the accounts could look at the figure in the bank, and the surplus for the year and think there were no problems. Closer inspection would have shown the combined parishes ended the year in surplus, but Diocesan overspending pulled that down. Just as with family budgets, the most important figure is not what is in the bank, but the difference between money in and money out. If you have a million a year and spend 1.1 million you end up in Queer Street. the sum total of money owned by the trust.

A priest lectures in a college, then does a year or so as Bishops Secretary, followed by a year or so as an assistant priest, then gets his own parish, then a bigger parish, then he becomes a canon, then a monsignor. The day comes when he is elevated to the rank of bishop, responsible for souls, land, properties, and millions of pounds. Trustees can include nurses, doctors, retired service officers, just anybody who is considered sufficiently middle class. Result = disaster. Trustees Report

Following revelations of this fiasco, new trustees were appointed.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Thanks for that, Rose!

It would appear that the Telegraph article is misleading. I take back the 'pull the other one' comment.

Naughty Telegraph! :angel:
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Oct 16 2006, 11:34 PM
Quote:
 
The Vatican now wants to ensure that this does not happen again. Archbishop Sainz Munoz said in a letter to the bishops — leaked to the Catholic magazine The Tablet — that the Vatican wished to be informed of "the financial structures and of the situation obtaining in every diocese".







I have only just realised a letter was sent to the bishops, somebody leaked it to the Tablet, and it then fell into the hands of the Telegraph.

Somebody has been disloyal to his or her employer. That is not acceptable. For all we know, Dioceses world wide may have been told to submit their accounts to the Vatican. It might not have anything to do with what happened at Lancaster.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

The Subsidising of Catholicism

When the hierarchy appeal in the name of charity, how much do they acknowledge that, directly and indirectly, the British population as a whole, rich and less well off alike, already contribute vast sums of money to charitable causes.

How would, for example, the Diocese finances fare were it not for the generosity of the population as a whole?

Same question trickles down to Catholic Schools, the Religious Orders, Sponsorships, and all of similar ilk.

So how would they survive if, like those for example on the minimum wage, they received no special treatment, and had to survive pound for pound according to market forces?

If the population withdrew all these favours, might Catholicism be better off in the long run, leaner, more fitter, and certainly more spiritually alive?

I wonder how many have thought this out properly.

PJD
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Michael

If the population withdrew all these favours, might Catholicism be better off in the long run, leaner, more fitter, and certainly more spiritually alive?

i don't like the sound of it, i might not financially viable enough for this new brand of catholiscism
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denis

Is'nt it our duty as Catholics to try and follow the teachings of the Church esp the 6 Commandments of the Church, one of which we, are are bound to contribute to the support of our Pastors. I do'nt think Subsidising comes into at all
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Rose of York
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PJD
Oct 19 2006, 04:37 PM
So how would they survive if, like those for example on the minimum wage, they received no special treatment, and had to survive pound for pound according to market forces?

If the population withdrew all these favours, might Catholicism be better off in the long run, leaner, more fitter, and certainly more spiritually alive?

I wonder how many have thought this out properly.

PJD

PJD

What special treatment?

What favours?
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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I think there must be a new sense of urgency in the Vatican now with Pope Benedict in the Chair of Peter. There have been so many cover-ups, mishandled funds, lawsuits claiming the assets of dioceses, that it could be possible for the Vatican to require financial records be made available for review. In the case of my former diocese in Iowa, they have had to pay out over $10.7 million in lawsuits, which is way over their asset limit. Our parishes own their buildings and assets, not the diocese. I often think that's a misconception of people who sue a diocese. Agreed, the parishes contribute to the running of the diocese (i.e. the Annual Appeal), as they fund missions, schools and seminaries, the offices, the diocesan grounds, etc. But it's also highly likely the average person never sees the records of their own diocese and might wonder where their money goes when they donate.

You can show percentages on a graph of the "donations", but what do those actually mean? We know it in our own diocese, because we have required it, but how many have actually seeing diocesan financial records? (or been interested in doing so)
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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Karin
Oct 20 2006, 04:09 PM
Our parishes own their buildings and assets, not the diocese. I often think that's a misconception of people who sue a diocese.

Karin I imagine lawyers advised suing dioceses, not parishes, on the grounds that it was bishops, not parish priests, who moved these ahem, unsatisfactory priests around.

In the UK, dioceses end plenty of copies of accounts to parishes, they should be freely available to anyone who wants to pick one up. Many people assume parishes and/or dioceses are all short of money. Some are very wealthy. Some are poor. I always read the accounts.
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Yes, I know Rose. It is sad. With everything else the church is going through, we need to have some good news for a change!
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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PJD

I will come back to you on those two points Rose.

But I am not saying that the financial status quo should go; no no

that was only to prise out what one would think would happen if things like charitable status were withdrawn.

What I am more interested in is pinning down who are the benefactors to Catholicism, i.e. main benefactors; which I think lie mainly with the British public and I would like it to be recognized. Proving it, if I were a statistic man, it might be quicker for me.

Question of merit!

Have to go now.

PJD
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