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| Deacons | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 28. September 2006, 21:08 (1,961 Views) | |
| Emee | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 18:31 Post #181 |
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I have just caught up with this thread. Joe, to liken the married state to one of primitive gratification, which is what you have done when you write: "enjoying what we might call the pleasures of the flesh" is truly insulting. I politely request that you apolgise for such an out of balance comment. Really, is that all you consider marriage to be??? |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 18:31 Post #182 |
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As to the concept of "the eyes and ears of the bishop", I don't see this role as one of spy. Rather I see it as one which the priest might usefully avail himself of also. What a very good idea to have someone whose life is rooted in the real world with its mundane difficulties able (indeed encouraged) to tell other ordained men what it's really like.
Edited by OsullivanB, Saturday, 7. November 2009, 18:32.
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 19:50 Post #183 |
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I too considered it an insult to all wives, and to deacons who are married. Joe, it is good to know why we wives are valued. I second Emee's request for an apology. No moderator badge on this post, I write in my capacity of married woman. |
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| Joe Valente | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 21:51 Post #184 |
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Emee, Rose I happen to have great respect for the Sacrament of marriage, so much so that I consider marriage and the rearing of a family, providing for my family and eventually forming bonds with my grandchildren a full time occupation. There may be time for voluntary work, yes, but in marriage I committed my life to wife and family. If I had wanted to commit my life to the Church I would have done that. If my words offended you ladies, my apologies, but my point , whilst wrongly worded in previous post is that they are looking for the best of both worlds. I do not believe that clerical life and married life are compatible. In an emergency which committment comes first ? |
| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 21:57 Post #185 |
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Apology accepted, Joe. Thanks. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 22:13 Post #186 |
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We could apply the same argument to service personnel, ambulance drivers, lifeboat crew, police, mountain and moorland rescue, paramedics. If they had to keep a rule of celibacy their numbers would be few. As an ex servicewoman and former service wife, I assure you, there are women who marry knowing their husbands have comittments that must come first. Service wives tend to have a spiritof independence, it is essential. Women who cannot cope with that would do well to consider the commitment prior to the wedding. The same applies to clergy wives. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Emee | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 23:26 Post #187 |
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Joe Apology accepted. Yes your first choice of words were a little crass to say the least, and gave the impression you had a low opinion of marriage. So thank you also for explaining your position a little more clearly. I happen to disagree with you where Deacons are concerned and believe they CAN fulfill both roles well, but thank you anyway for explaining where you are coming from. |
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| Richard Hannay. | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 00:28 Post #188 |
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The problem is married service personnel and their spouses are bound to a life of celibacy when on detachments which can last for over 9 months at present, depending upon their rank and position. Unfortunately some do not manage it very well and discord is the result. I watched a documentary on channel 4, I think it was, which gave an in depth and personal account of wives and sweethearts who had sent their husbands “Dear John letters” during WW 2. Business and many professions and the general divorce and separation rate demonstrate that there are many other walks of life, apart from priesthood were devotion to the job can be at the expense of family life, the priesthood is at least honest by making it clear up front that the Job comes first. I do not have any statistics; though some one may be able to Google some, but I know three Anglican wives whose husbands left them and two Anglican clergymen who found their wives cheating on them in all five cases his “Job” was considered the root of the problem. I also think it very unfair on the children; it’s bad enough being the child of the teacher but being the vicars kid is a terrible burden. The analogy of an emergency used by Joe is not the best defence because priests do have family commitments to parents and siblings. I do however agree with his basic premise that marriage and priesthood both require a degree of commitment to a relationship that by its nature should be exclusive. |
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| Joseph | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 00:50 Post #189 |
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That's an easy one Joe. Married Deacons are committed to honour their obligations in the following order:- 1) Their Marriage and family. 2) Their job, if it is their means of earning a living. 3) Their role as a Deacon. |
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| Joe Valente | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 07:53 Post #190 |
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Thanks Joseph, I see that list as proving my point. Lets say that the Deacon is employed as a plumber and receives a call to attend someone at the point of death and at the same time his boss orders him to attend an urgent call to a householder who has a burst pipe which is causing severe damage to the property.........................................!!!!!! Like I said "a halfway house" |
| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Anne-Marie | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 10:12 Post #191 |
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Joe, I will probably get slung out for saying this... but say I will anyway. What you have just written is disgusting and deeply offensive. Some of us have been through hell for those we love - some of us have been 'broken' emotionally because of the commitment we have given to that love. I was married for eight years. During thwe whole of that time, my husband worked abroad on highly specialised work. It only later transpired he just wanted someone to take his daughter off his hands! I saw him for two or three days every third weekend. Other than Christmas/New Year, we had only one two week holiday together each year. My stepdaughter was 6˝ when she came to me. She was totally illiterate, yet within just 18months a judge noted education reports she was already three years ahead of her age - he was amazed as he had "never seen anything like this in all my years on the bench". Shortly after going to comprehensive school my daughter became increasingly violent and I resorted to locking the kitchen knives in my filing cabinet when she was in the house. It soon became apparent that a neighbour was actively encouraging my daughter to be 'awkward' at home. The neighbour was a nurse - and my husband trusted everything she and his daughter told him. The woman's son later confirmed his mother had told him years before that she wished she'd killed him as a child because she wanted a daughter and her husband refused to have another child. Such was the psychology of that woman, my life increasingly resembled hell, with my daughter finally trying to kill me. Had she succeeded, my life would have eben over anyway. Int he event, I was lucky I managed not to hurt her while defending myself, or I would almost certainly have gone to prison for something I hadn't done. (She had spent years trying to set me up, forexample screaming on the stairs in the hope the police would turn up and witness her distress - before starting to whistle and going to bed when her ploy didn't produce the desired result.) It was only then, without any support from anyone (husband included) that I finally decided there was no point continuing and threw her out. My husband condemned me for forcing him to come home from Germany, where he was having an affair. He then dumped his daughter on an old man, before taking himself back to Germany! It was only when the school threatened to call in social services he finally accepted his responsibility. I won't pretend to be sorry that my husband died of cancer within two years! Yes, Joe, you can bleat all you like about your sick garbage of first loyalty: some of us go through hell in the real world and keep going without hesitation until it no longer matters. And yes, my life didn't get any better when I met a professional person who went to great lengths to charm me, even going into a Catholic church, lighting a candle and praying on our first date. That one memory kept me going through yet another hell when a year later my friend claimed to have a breakdown and used me to negotiate a very enhanced early retirement package. My use was then over and I was subjected to more than five years of total misery which nearly broke me once more, before I was finally cast off. The only consolation I have is knowledge of my own integrity at not walking away no matter how bad things got. If all that were not bad enough, I have since had two Catholics who I thought wonderful (says something about my judgement - or perhaps I was just desperate for someone to love me!) come after me and 'knock me off my feet'. Both duly treated me disgustingly when (perhaps not surprisingly) I took 'too long' letting my barriers down. Sex, Joe, should be an expression of love, not love something that grows out of good sex! Sex is NOT what a relationship, love, marriage is all about. I am sure I am not the only one here (I know I'm not) who has paid a VERY high price for love and total commitment - and I NEVER allowed that to in any way obstruct my other commitments, including as a local councillor in the front line of addressing major and explosive issues at a time of great crisis. As for priorities, I was sufficiently effective to routinely get standing ovations at public meeting as "the only person who makes any ******* sense around here"! Despite being on the Opposition front bench! And I won even the respect and support of the now Mayor of Lewisham (despite me being his opposite number in his then post). And, yes Joe, if all that weren't enough, while going through hell in my next relationship, I was the ONLY person who stood up to the managemenbt of a Catholic school from the moment I was appoint as a governor. The other governors refused even to sit next to me (one told me I was "evil and a trouble maker"), the teachers refused to speak to me ("We have been told we will be disciplined if we talk to you"!!!!!!!!!! Which was enough to tell me something VERY nasty was going on), parents refused to challenge the head when she blatantly lied to them, , the Church refused to support me because it was a Catholic school and "It can't be that bad" - and I still have the letter from a senior official at the education authority telling me "You need to learn how to be a proper school governor". I risked everything including bankruptcy still challenging the school head - until my own party (in control at that time) finally lost their nerve when i threatened to go to the press and oublicly condemn my own party! They knew better than to call my bluff when I said that. The rest is history! FRANKLY, JOE, YOU OPEN YOU MOUTH WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU may be inadequate, Joe, but some of us KNOW where our duty lies, no matter how many duties we may face simultaneously nor how devastating every one of them may be. So if I get chucked out of here for telling you to shut your mouth until you know what you're talking about, so be it! |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Joe Valente | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 11:32 Post #192 |
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By Heavens, Anne Marie, you are a mighty woman. Now that you have got all that of your chest would you ever be kind enough to tell me what that has to do with my opposition to Deacons. Also your plaintive weeping does not impress me in the least. I, too, have survived many tramaus and hurts but have no intention of using them in an attempt to elicit sympathy for my point of view on a public forum. Despite your venom I remain of the opinion that Deacons are unneccessary and present a "halfway house" Personal attacks will not alter that. |
| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Mrs.Pogle | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 12:16 Post #193 |
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Our Deacon is a married man with grown-up children and he is a wonderful man! He was part of the hospital chaplaincy when I had my op and came to visit me a couple of times, bringing Holy Communion. He also took time to chat to others on my ward. I often go to him for advice as he has great pastoral skills, and for reasons I won't go into, I would seek him out for advice over my Priest. He is very "necessary" both to me and many others in the Parish, and we are blessed indeed to have him :)
Edited by Mrs.Pogle, Sunday, 8. November 2009, 12:17.
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"Living Life on the Home Front!" My Blog: Life on the Home Front  “It is most laudable in a married woman to be devout, but she must never forget that she is a housewife. And sometimes she must leave God at the altar to find Him in her housekeeping.” ~ St. Frances of Rome | |
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| Anne-Marie | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 12:27 Post #194 |
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Thanks for the sarcasm. It doesn't do you any credit. You bleat on about having to choose priorities. I gave ample personal example of the fact many of us (and I am far from being alone in that here, though others choose to bide their tongues when dealing with you) HAVE to face simultaneous demands on us each of which can seem overwhelming. Some of us, living in the real world, Joe, deal with it - and do so without failing. You sit on your little throne declaiming the possibility of doing so. You don't know what you're talking about and someone needed to say so. The competing and conflicting demands on deacons and married priests are nothing compared to what MANY of us have to deal with in the real world. My comment have EVERYTHING to do with the nonsense you spout. |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 12:40 Post #195 |
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Joe I trust that when a man is in formation for the diaconate, account would be taken of his level of compassion. Ideally he would be capable of giving a person who has been through hell a listening ear, not accuse her of plaintive weeping.or eliciting sympathy. He would not indulge in "comparative suffering", i.e. telling a person "we all have problems". You think Deacons are a half way house. Would you rather leave people in need of support, with nobody? I personally know Catholics who have been reduced to turning to non Catholic clergy, to visit and pray, to sit with them when they fear for the future, on the understanding they are not offered invalid sacraments. |
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9:04 AM Nov 23