Quote:

 

Bishop Higi - A Look at the Permanent Diaconate
PRAISED BE JESUS CHRIST!
(Now and Forever)

Over the years, as the leadership of this Local Church has tried to plan for the future, suggestions have been made that the permanent diaconate be established. Five permanent deacons have “faculties” to function here in Northcentral Indiana, but they have come from elsewhere. They were not ordained for our Local Church. There is no permanent deacon program here as such. People have asked, since in its fullness ordained ministry in the Catholic Church includes bishops, priests and deacons, why doesn’t this Local Church ordain deacons?

Deacons are not a fad or even an option in the strict sense of the term. However, the permanent diaconate has undergone evolution, so to speak. Aware of that, I have prayerfully reflected on the experience of others and long ago decided that timing is most important.

There were permanent deacons in the early Church, but since the fifth century, the diaconate had been conferred only on those preparing for priesthood. Its exercise became restricted to liturgical functions. So, when it became a reality in the United States in 1968, there was no recent lived experience to shape its development. Moreover, the restoration of the permanent diaconate occurred at a time when the Second Vatican Council gave great impetus to lay ministry, and when the number of priests had begun to decline. Heavy emphasis initially was placed on the liturgical role of deacons. Focus was not clearly on the distinct character of the diaconate nor on the three-fold service for which deacons are ordained. Some even referred to them as “lay deacons.” There was disagreement over whether they should wear lay clothes or the Roman collar.

In this confusion, in some dioceses, men who had at one time considered the priesthood, but who had married, or well-intentioned men whom pastors called on for help and others who were involved in charitable works, were rewarded with a newly found gold star — the diaconate. Preparation was somewhat minimal and it was a nice thing to do.

However, deacons are not lay persons, nor are they meant to be substitutes for priests. Rather, they are ordained specifically for service. While all three orders in the Catholic Church (bishop, priest, deacon) serve the people of God, they do so in different ways. Deacons are called to a three-fold service: service of the word; service of charity; and service of the altar. To be a deacon, a man must be prepared to dedicate himself to all three. Moreover, the permanent deacon is meant to be an animator and a reminder to his brothers and sisters of what each of us should be doing by reason of our baptism and of what we should continually strive to become in accord with our God-given gifts. There is much more to the diaconate than wearing vestments and helping the priest at Sunday liturgy.

Through reflection and lived experience, this has gradually begun to be understood. Deacons are clerics and not laity. Deacons are called to a three-fold service. Deacons are animators of their fellow Catholics in the ministry of charity. Deacons are not ordained primarily for a parish. Deacons should not be understood in terms of what they do, but what they are. The diaconate is a distinct order in the Catholic Church.

Emerging clarity about these points suggests to me that now is the time to give serious consideration to initiating a diaconal program in our Local Church.

There has been an additional aspect to my “timing” concern. Other dioceses have learned that candidates for the permanent diaconate are best drawn from the ranks of those who have completed a structured program of lay ministry formation. If a deacon is to be an animator who does not take a lay minister’s place, but who invites others to join him in initiating and sustaining the ministry of charity where it is needed, he is well served by a clear understanding of lay ecclesial ministry.

So, I have repeatedly responded to requests to initiate the permanent diaconate by saying consideration would not be given until this diocese had a lay ecclesial ministry program in place. That now is a reality.

Two people will complete the requirements of our Ecclesial Lay Ministry (ELM) program this year. More than 100 people are currently enrolled in ELM. Since completion of the three-year academic, spiritual formation and professional skills experience known as ELM will be one of the criteria used in selecting candidates for the permanent diaconate, now that ELM is a reality, focus can be turned to the possibility of initiating the diaconate.

I am in the process of forming a committee to look into the establishment of a diaconal program. That committee will be directed to study the documents approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, admission standards, the courses specific to diaconal formation and how we might provide those courses.

While candidates for the diaconate do not have to be college graduates, they must have the intellectual ability to do the academic work required. In the Diocese of Gary, for example, diaconal formation is a three-year program. Candidates must be recommended by their pastor, must undergo psychological testing and pass muster before an admissions committee. “Classes” are held one night a week for 10 months, with one Saturday a month set aside for spiritual formation. Candidates also must establish that they have the ability to collaborate with pastors and parish staff, they must exhibit flexibility of thought and action, and they must be totally committed to the demands of the Order of Deacon. The academic work required is college level.

I have my own ideas about the diaconate, of course. While the minimal canonical age is 35, men with children who have not yet finished high school need to focus on presence to their family, specifically their children, rather than the diaconate.

Deacons have a hierarchy of values: Priority is given to their family, then their job or means of livelihood, and then diaconal assignments. Nonetheless, I expect the men I ordain permanent deacons to be able, on average, to give six to 10 hours per week to their assignments, apart from the liturgical functions they might perform.

I also expect the men I ordain to the permanent diaconate to be financially self-sufficient. In the United States, unless a deacon is hired by a parish or diocese for specific positions, they function without pay.

Further, it is my expectation that those selected for diaconal formation will have been actively involved in their parish for at least three years. This includes fidelity to weekly Mass, utilization of the sacrament of reconciliation, and some degree of volunteerism on the parish level.

There will be more about the permanent diaconate in future columns.

This column originally appeared in The Catholic Moment on Oct. 14, 2001

More About the Permanent Diaconate

PRAISED BE JESUS CHRIST!
(Now and Forever)

Now appears to be the time to give serious consideration to initiating the permanent diaconate in this Local Church. A structured program of formation for lay ecclesial ministers is in place. Opportunities to reflect on the experience of other dioceses who initiated the permanent diaconate shortly after it became a reality in the United States back in 1968 is also an advantage. The diaconate is part of the tripartite ordained ministry of the Catholic Church: bishops, priests and deacons. However, when the permanent diaconate was restored by the Second Vatican Council, there was no recent lived experience to shape its development. Much has been learned over the ensuing years.

In considering the possibility of initiating the permanent diaconate, it is important to understand that deacons are not called to be replacements for priests nor do they function as lay ministers. Rather, the diaconate is a distinct order within the ordained ministry of the Church. Deacons are clerics, not lay persons. They are ordained specifically for service and there are three dimensions to that service: ministry of the word, charity and altar.

The service of the word is far reaching. It includes proclaiming the Gospel and articulating the Church’s needs in the general intercessions during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but much more. Deacons may offer catechetical instruction, instruct catechumens, give retreats, conduct parish renewal programs and be leaders in reaching out to alienated Catholics. In addition, there is an informal dimension to this ministry of the word. Deacons have many opportunities to speak about Jesus and his Gospel at home, at work, in the market place and as they participate in civil life. Part of the service of the word is to be a person who evangelizes, that is, who lives their religion with enthusiasm, who invites others to join them in living the fullness of that faith, and who takes the values of Jesus Christ into the secular city so the world in which we live can be transformed by the saving power of Jesus Christ.

The service of charity is as extensive as our human needs. Deacons minister in prisons and in hospitals, serving prisoners and the sick. They visit the homebound and people in nursing homes. They reach out to the abandoned, the dying and the bereaved, immigrants and refugees and the victims of racial and ethnic discrimination. There are numerous opportunities for deacons to serve the poor and needy. Through the service of charity, deacons carry out the biblical mandate to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and give relief to those in need. In this service a deacon must be unconditionally pro-life. He must strive to overcome such evils as abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia and racism. These are a vital part of a deacon’s ministry.

The service of the altar includes not only specific roles assigned the deacon during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but other functions as well. A deacon may solemnly baptize children or adults, witness marriages, bring viaticum to the dying, preside over wakes, funerals and burial services. He also may preside over Liturgies of the Word, the Liturgy of the Hours and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. He may lead non-sacramental reconciliation services, conduct prayer services for the sick and dying, and administer certain of the Church’s sacramentals.

If a deacon is to be an authentic sign of the servant-Christ, his diaconal ministry must include all three of these dimensions. This does not mean that equal time must be given to all three, but all three must be embraced. The needs of the community, the deacon’s own specific competence and the guidance of the pastors of the Church determine how the deacon is to use his resources.

Permanent deacons may either be single or married. In the United States, most are married men who work in the secular world. Deacons have a special witness to give. As our Holy Father has pointed out, “The fact that he is an ordained minister of the Church brings a special dimension to his efforts in the eyes of those with whom he lives and works.”

Since the great majority of deacons are married, they and their wives, along with their family, bring to the Church a unique witness. Burdened with all the responsibilities of a job, a home and a family, they struggle, together, to maintain a meaningful and growing relationship with one another and with God, not unlike the challenge faced by the great majority of the people of God. Their life of prayer and service enriches and challenges their brothers and sisters. Their efforts to grow as spiritual men and women, and as a couple, have much to teach the faith community.

A crucial point which must be understood by all candidates for the permanent diaconate is that while a deacon may be either married or single, if single, deacons are not permitted to marry following ordination and if the married deacon’s wife dies after he has been ordained, he is not permitted to remarry. This is consistent with the general rule of the Church: Married men can be called to sacred orders, but those who have been ordained may not marry.

The revised Code of Canon Law requires the written consent of the wife to her husband’s ordination. So that will be informed consent, opportunities are provided during the course of diaconal formation for the wives of candidates to discuss and share their insights, apprehensions and concerns. Most feel the wives of candidates should participate as fully as possible in the entire program of formation, including taking courses and attending social gatherings and retreats. Studies suggest that wives who participate most fully in the formation and ministry of their husbands manifest the highest degree of satisfaction and the lowest degree of stress.

Even though it is clearly understood from the outset that the wife is not to be ordained, nevertheless her marriage and family are truly involved. The deacon and his wife will need to make a realistic assessment of how her own career, family and personal preference will be affected and respected. They have to be aware that the nurturing and deepening of their mutual sacrificial love will be the most important way that she will be involved in her husband’s public ministry in the Church. Spiritual direction can help both the wife and husband in understanding and appreciating this reality.

In many instances, the wife of the deacon becomes involved in a type of team ministry with her deacon husband.

There will be still more about the permanent diaconate in a future column.

This column originally appeared in The Catholic Moment on Oct. 21, 2001

Concluding Comments on the Permanent Diaconate

PRAISED BE JESUS CHRIST!
(Now and Forever)

The Order of Deacon can be traced back to the early Church. The Eastern Catholic Churches have ordained permanent deacons through the centuries. But in the West, since the fifth century, the diaconate generally has been conferred only on those preparing for the priesthood and its exercise has been restricted to liturgical functions.

The possibility of restoring the permanent diaconate to the western Church was considered by the Council of Trent in the 16th century, but nothing was done to implement that idea. At the Second Vatican Council, bishops expressed a desire that the permanent diaconate be restored for the Latin Rite. Statements to this effect in both the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Art. 29) and the Decree on the Church’s Missionary Activity (Art. 16) also add that the decision of whether and where it is opportune that the permanent diaconate be restored would pertain to each episcopal conference, subject to papal approval.

In 1967, Pope Paul VI re-established the permanent diaconate in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, and placed the decision regarding its local restoration in the hands of each nation’s episcopal conference, subject to papal approval. On May 2, 1968, the bishops of the United States petitioned the Holy See for permission to establish the permanent diaconate in our country. A favorable response was received on August 30, 1968.

The diaconate is an integral part of the Church’s three-fold hierarchy of ordained ministry, that is, bishops, priests and deacons. Bishops and priests are able to do everything deacons can do, and deacons can do many of the things priests and bishops can do. It is also true that laity can do most of the things that deacons are empowered to do. But, that misses the point. The point is that the ordained ministry in its fullness includes all three orders: bishops, priests, deacons. This was recognized by the bishops of the United States when they petitioned Pope Paul VI to authorize restoration of the permanent diaconate in the United States. They pointed to two reasons: to complete the hierarchy of sacred orders and to enrich and strengthen the various diaconal ministries at work in the United States with the sacramental grace of diaconate.

In two previous columns I have indicated that now appears to be the time for this Local Church to give serious consideration to beginning a diaconal program. For that reason, I am in the process of forming a committee to study the documents of the permanent diaconate issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, admission standards, the courses specific to diaconal formation and how we here in Northcentral Indiana might provide those courses.

There is a minimal canonical age for candidates: 35. The usual maximum age is 61. Training typically lasts a minimum of three years. In this diocese, men ordained to the diaconate will first have to complete a three-year Ecclesial Lay Ministry program before being accepted as candidates for the diaconate. Permanent deacons are expected to be financially self-sufficient. Deacons are meant to be animators who remind their brothers and sisters of what each of us should be doing by reason of our baptism and of what we should continually strive to become in accord with our God-given gifts.

I expect the men I ordain to the permanent diaconate to be able, on average, to give six to 10 hours per week to their assignments, in addition to the liturgical functions they may perform.

At the time of ordination, a permanent deacon makes a promise of obedience to his diocesan bishop and that bishop’s successors. The deacon is to collaborate with the bishop in serving the needs of the people as the bishop directs and where he discerns the need. Like priests, a deacon is accountable to the bishop. He is not the “parish deacon,” nor does he belong exclusively to, or serve only, the parish in which he resides.

I see three specific areas where deacons could prove to be of invaluable service to our Local Church. These are: prison ministry, ministry to the home-bound and infirm, and Hispanic ministry.

There is an expanding prison system in Northcentral Indiana. Presently there are three prisons at Pendleton. It would appear that eventually there will be an equal number on the site of the former Grissom Air Force Base outside Peru. Catholics are part of the inmate mix in those institutions. Not to be overlooked are the many city jails and county detention centers scattered throughout Northcentral Indiana. In Matthew 25, Jesus calls his Church to minister to those who are incarcerated. I will expect those ordained to the permanent diaconate to be open to accepting assignment to the incarcerated.

A second area of need is the increasing numbers who find themselves home-bound and in extended care facilities (nursing homes). This is a challenge in all parishes.

The third area is ministry to the increasing number of immigrants in our area, especially Hispanics.

While deacons will come from specific parishes and their pastors likely will welcome their ministry at the parish level, the men called to the diaconate in our Local Church will be expected to be open to accepting assignment to one or more of the three areas mentioned above. This may mean introducing Spanish-language classes to diaconal formation, as well as professional skills needed to minister to the incarcerated and the infirm. I am remanding these needs and how they might be fulfilled by permanent deacons to the committee looking into the feasibility of establishing a diaconal program in our diocese.

Formation is a process. It involves an openness to lifelong growth in spirituality, ministerial competence, personal accountability and the development of community. Unless the ordained continue to deepen their relationship with God, enrich their theological knowledge and pastoral skills, open themselves to valid critique or evaluation, and share both faith and ministry with others, they cannot be who they say they are: servants of the Gospel. If they are open to prayer, study and community, they will be credible servants of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, the committee I shall establish needs to put together a strong formation program, one attuned to the ministry and needs of deacons. It must be pastoral in tone and direction, employ an adult learning style of education, teach skills in theological reflection, offer opportunities for personal and communal spiritual growth, provide experience in a variety of ministries, and be based on the theological, scriptural and liturgical teaching and insights of Vatican II. That is no small challenge, but now is the time for this Local Church to explore our ability to provide it.

This column originally appeared in The Catholic Moment on Oct. 28, 2001

Deacon Robert

Sep 29 2006, 02:28 PM

.

If there is any interest it can be read online:


http://www.usccb.org/deacon/DeaconDirectory.pdf

Eve,Aug 12 2006

08:11 PM

Is there a Diocese in England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland that ADVERTISES for men to offer themselves for the permanent diaconate, or makes any other effort in that direction?

If you know of any deacons what duties do they carry out?

Derekap,Aug 12 2006

09:50 PM

I don't know of any diocese or parish which advertises for Permanent Deacons. I presume it is up to the Bishop or a priest to suggest the ideas to whom they think are suitable candidates. Also presumably the individual may feel inclined to offer himself for consideration.

Deacons assist the Celebrant during Holy Mass, they read the Gospel, they can preach, help, of course, with the distribution of Holy Communion. They take Holy Communion to people at home or in hospital. They can also take funeral services and, naturally, Holy Communion Services. I am sure there are more duties he can fulfil but surely someone will enlighten us.

The Deacon at the church I attend prepares the Altar for Holy Mass and sees to the Altar Servers, ensures there are such if need be, ensures the readers and EMsHC are available.

Derekap

Eve,Aug 12 2006

10:11 PM

Vocations exhibitions used to be common. Religous orders for men and women would be there, with displays showing the role and rule of life of the Order. The Diocese would have a big stall, inviting young men to come forward. Catholic papers carried adverts for Diocesan clergy and religous. That was in the days when we had plenty of priests and full convents, monasteries and abbeys.

CARLO,Aug 12 2006

10:52 PM

My Parish from time to time invites men with an interest in the permanent Diaconate to attend an information day with other Deacons, Priests and the Bishop.

The selection and discernment procedure is very long winded and the training period is also too long.

Deacon's wives are also in my view idolised and the impression is given that one is lost without an angelic wife and need not bother to apply.

This sounds all very negative but I fully support the permanent Diaconate and I would like to see its numbers significantly increased.

Sadly I do not think this will happen unless we 'ease up' a bit.

I think Deacons can also conduct the Marriage Service.

Sursum Corda
Lift up your hearts

CARLO

Derekap,Aug 13 2006

02:05 PM

I think wives are included at many stages during the training of Permanent Deacons in order to ensure they fully realise the duties of such men. This would hopefully avoid disagreements when the men are ordained and busy. Also to avoid any friction which may arise between such couples either during training or later. I find this very sensible!

Derekap

Rose of York,Aug 13 2006

02:36 PM

Derek it is sheer common sense. If my husband had ever dared tell me that for the rest of his life his first commitment would be to the Church and I were to take second place, and it was all arranged with the Bishop I would have blown up and asked "Did nobody have the manners to consult me?"

All concerned need to ascertain whether a Deacon's wife is fully aware of the effect on marriage and family life, and whether she shares her husband's commitment.

tomais,Aug 13 2006

04:01 PM

Good afternoob Eve- hmm just had to log in- am I being watched?
Picture in todays Scottish Catholic Observer of a meeting of the Scottish Deacons under training- meeting in Perth Kinnoul yes the Redemtorits place.
No advertising that I know of; word of mouth and chats with Parish priest. Chap i/c Deaconate in Scotlad I know has a web site- somewhere.; The Archbishop of Clairmont ( France) was there at this course,plus a French cleric in Aberdeen gave a talk too.
$ due to finish soon; numbers? Circa 24 or so,but thisis not accurate.
This summer school was news to me but then this is an area remote, very remote to me.
Piece bu Donna nicholson for those wishing to probe further in the Scottish Catholic Observer.
I have one contact who came up against an age barrier- too young! Well that makes a change these day eh?
Chilly today Eve but the Festival underway; as a PS there are about 60 items in the Fetival and Fringe with a Faith/ spiritual content( got this from herlad chap today)AND NO riots and protests etc; arent wee good this year?
St Patricks due to refurbishments have only one item in this years Fring- professor Hamish Swanstaon who know him.
Au Revoir D'Edinbour

Patrick,Aug 14 2006

12:08 AM

Eve,Aug 12 2006

07:11 PM

Is there a Diocese in England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland that ADVERTISES for men to offer themselves for the permanent diaconate, or makes any other effort in that direction?

Funny you should ask, Eve, because when I was browsing some diocesan websites a while back for something unconnected to the Diaconate, I'm sure I saw an 'advert' for the diaconate - if only I could remember which diocese...

:unsure:

Alan E,Aug 14 2006

12:41 AM

If my memory serves me correctly I think the Archdiocese of Westminster appealed for vocations using Beer Mats.

This was about 12 months ago.

Patrick,Aug 14 2006

12:52 AM

Alan E,Aug 13 2006

11:41 PM

If my memory serves me correctly I think the Archdiocese of Westminster appealed for vocations using Beer Mats.

This was about 12 months ago.

You are indeed correct. I never took stock of any though - and neither did the brewery, I did ask!

:rolleyes:

Although, the recruitment 'ad' for the diaconate I saw was more recent. If only I could find it!

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

01:13 PM

Patrick,

I noticed that elsewhere you described the permanent diaconate as an innovation (I presume of V2). Were you simply making a joke or is this your considered opinion?

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

01:37 PM

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

12:13 PM

Patrick,

I noticed that elsewhere you described the permanent diaconate as an innovation (I presume of V2). Were you simply making a joke or is this your considered opinion?

Gerry

Gerard,

I do not see the point of the Permanent Diaconate, other than to provide a 'half-way' house for those men who want a greater role than EMHCs and who 'want their cake and eat it'.

Unlike the Transitional Diaconate, it's not going to make Priests out of men or stem the decrease in vocations to the Priesthood.

That's my opinion.

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

01:44 PM

Patrick,

Quote:

 

I do not see the point of the Permanent Diaconate, other than to provide a 'half-way' house for those men who want a greater role than EMHCs and who 'want their cake and eat it'.

That used to be my opinion as well. Though my opinion may be beginning to change.

But what I am interested in is this:

Do you really think it is an innovation?

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

01:59 PM

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

12:44 PM

Patrick,

Quote:

 

I do not see the point of the Permanent Diaconate, other than to provide a 'half-way' house for those men who want a greater role than EMHCs and who 'want their cake and eat it'.

That used to be my opinion as well. Though my opinion may be beginning to change.

But what I am interested in is this:

Do you really think it is an innovation?

Gerry

In the strict sense of the word 'innovation' - yes.

I am aware that there was a permanent diaconate that started dying out in the 5th century AD, IIRC. However, In 1957 Pope Pius XII spoke favourably of a restored permanent diaconate, although concluding that 'the time is not yet ripe'.

The re-introduction was implemented by the Second Vatican Council.

Why, I don't know. Even Cardinal Hume had been reluctant to introduce them (particularly in Westminster Diocese) as he felt lay people were already burdened - a large number of them with many ministries - from being readers, to Eucharistic ministers.

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

02:12 PM

Hi Patrick,

I recognise some of the wording - I see you have been checking. I approve :D .

So you agree it is a re-introduction.

I would say a re-introduction was going back rather than an innovation.

Do you insist its an innovation?

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

02:16 PM

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

01:12 PM

Hi Patrick,

I recognise some of the wording - I see you have been checking. I approve :D .

So you agree it is a re-introduction.

I would say a re-introduction was going back rather than an innovation.

Do you insist its an innovation?

Gerry

:hehe:

Will you stop following me around the internet?



Ok, so maybe not so much an innovation as a 're-introduction' but I still fail to see the need for the Permanent Diaconate.

It's a bit like me being a barman, getting my licenses and then just staying a barman. What's the point?

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

02:23 PM

Patrick Mac Sweeney,Sep 8 2006

01:37 PM

I do not see the point of the Permanent Diaconate, other than to provide a 'half-way' house for those men who want a greater role than EMHCs and who 'want their cake and eat it'.

If I may chip in, between the theological and historical discussions, today I witnessed something that may be relevant.

I have mentioned often, that I live in a rural area. There is a dire shortage of priests. The pastoral provision for permanently sick and housebound* people is horrendous.

By coincidence I read this discussion ten minutes after driving past the village C of E Parish Church. There must have been over a hundred cars parked on a winding lane. Stewards were advising drivers when to proceed around the many bends. Our conversation went like this:

Husband: It must be a funeral.

Rose: Got to be. That church is virtually closed. They have one service a week at half past eight on Sunday mornings. Mid week nothing happens. Most people go to Saint Peter's up the road. ((four miles away)

Husband: Why?

Rose: Because one vicar has about five churches. The C of E is in as bad a state as we are.

Husband: I suppose its only a matter of time before they shut the place.

Rose: I imagine it won't be long before they shut the lot and make people go into town.

Husband: Well its obvious people are not completely anti-church or they wouldn't have had such a good turnout.

Rose: That will leave this area with one Methodist Church and one Catholic Church. Our bishop could take advantage of the situation.

Husband: How?

Rose: He could tell the priest to get a team of people to leaflet houses, letting people know there is a Catholic Church in this valley, and all are welcome. Some newcomers would give us a try, and become Catholics. A revival of Catholicism could start in the smaller communities and spread outwards.

Husband: Try telling that to the bishop.

Rose: I did, five years ago. He said it was a good idea.

Husband: Oh sure. What has he done about it?

Rose: Sweet nothing, other than having working parties to plan the "Inevitable Decline".

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

02:34 PM

So, what is the point in my long posting about the Church of England?

Here tis:

If we had more Deacons in rural areas, we might end up with more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

I do not want myself or my loved ones burying from a church miles away, and I wonder how many of my Catholic and non Catholic friends would be able to spare the time to attend. A deacon can do funerals, so long as there are premises.

On a more positive note, vasts areas in Britain will soon be without an active Christian presence. If there was more effort to get early retired men to become Permanent Deacons they could help keep our churches open for prayer during the week. A parish could have several Prayer Groups (tastes do vary!). We Catholics could keep in touch with each other and perhaps build up an SVP or other support society. The Deacon would be the "man in charge" to do the administration and hopefully ensure no clique drives others out. The Deacon would be available to go out to houses and residential homes and take feedback to the parish priest, telling him on occasions "Father this family are in need of regular priestly ministry." We could have communal activities. Hopefully the Catholic children would progress to become practising Catholic teenagers, and one day a young man would write a letter "Dear Bishop following discussions with my parish priest I wish to proceed on discernment of possible vocation to the priesthood."

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

02:45 PM

Patrick,

Thanks, if that admission was at all difficult let me say I admire you for it (and if it was easy, then the same).

Well, I am afraid the main point was to have you see that V2 actually did something. And this something was not a new invention, but a return to something that was practiced in the early church.

Now to answer your question.

Quote:

 

I still fail to see the need for the Permanent Diaconate.

It's a bit like me being a barman, getting my licenses and then just staying a barman. What's the point?

I used to think like this. What has changed my mind is not discussion or debate but personal experience. We recently had a Deacon ordained in our parish. I noticed two things immediately: our PP was no longer on his own (didnt seem so isolated) and the Deacon was a new centre of authority in the parish (subordinate to the PP). The Deacon really can lift burdens and workload from the PP. Sunday Baptisms are now performed by the Deacon. So the PP, after saying Masses all morning can have a break for a few hours.

I can even see an alternative to the current model of church reorganisation so disliked by Rose. Instead of shrinking to mega churches we could have "flying priests". Parishes could be run by deacons with priests parachuting in for Mass. I know that this could happen in theory without deacons but the authority they have would actually provide a focus for unity within the parish.

Gerry

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

02:47 PM

Rose,

I was writing my post as you were posting yours. We seem to be saying similar things.

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

08:49 PM

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

01:34 PM

If we had more Deacons in rural areas, we might end up with more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

Rose,

I don't see how, my friend - assuming you are, of course, referring to the Permanent and not the Transitional Diaconate...?


:unsure:

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

09:09 PM

Gerard,Sep 8 2006

01:45 PM

Patrick,

Thanks, if that admission was at all difficult let me say I admire you for it (and if it was easy, then the same).

Well, I am afraid the main point was to have you see that V2 actually did something. And this something was not a new invention, but a return to something that was practiced in the early church.

Now to answer your question.

Quote:

 

I still fail to see the need for the Permanent Diaconate.

It's a bit like me being a barman, getting my licenses and then just staying a barman. What's the point?

I used to think like this. What has changed my mind is not discussion or debate but personal experience. We recently had a Deacon ordained in our parish. I noticed two things immediately: our PP was no longer on his own (didnt seem so isolated) and the Deacon was a new centre of authority in the parish (subordinate to the PP). The Deacon really can lift burdens and workload from the PP. Sunday Baptisms are now performed by the Deacon. So the PP, after saying Masses all morning can have a break for a few hours.

I can even see an alternative to the current model of church reorganisation so disliked by Rose. Instead of shrinking to mega churches we could have "flying priests". Parishes could be run by deacons with priests parachuting in for Mass. I know that this could happen in theory without deacons but the authority they have would actually provide a focus for unity within the parish.

Gerry

Gerard,

Admitting when I'm wrong is not something I find difficult. If I'm wrong, I'll hold my hands up and thanks for your kind words.

So far, I can see that the Permanent Diaconate can relieve the burden on the priest in certain functions and assist him in others. Fair enough. But it is largely pointless if that is where it ends. It's a cul-de-sac of a vocation, is it not?

You see, altar serving for boys used to be the recruiting ground for vocations to the Priesthood. The Transitional Diaconate also leads to the Priesthood. Where does the Permanent Diaconate lead? Nowhere.

So, apart from helping out the Priest, providing a compromise for those wanting to be priests but not prepared/unable to give their lives up to God totally and allowing those who want greater roles than EMHCs or lay readers, what is the point?

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

09:21 PM

Patrick Mac Sweeney,Sep 8 2006

08:49 PM

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

01:34 PM

If we had more Deacons in rural areas, we might end up with more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

Rose,

I don't see how, my friend - assuming you are, of course, referring to the Permanent and not the Transitional Diaconate...?


:unsure:

By keeping rural churches open, and helping keep communal prayer and social activities in full swing in town parishes, there would be more inducement for our young people to remain within the Church. While we are losing our teenagers there is little hope of getting more priests and religious.

Few Permanent Deacons can become priests. Most of them are married. Whatever they say about the Permanent Diaconate being a unique vocation, entirely different from priesthhod, it seems to me that they are in fact the priest's "helpers".

What puzzles me is, a permanent Deacon is directly responsible to the bishop, not the parish priest.

Patrick,Sep 8 2006

09:34 PM

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

08:21 PM

Patrick Mac Sweeney,Sep 8 2006

08:49 PM

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

01:34 PM

If we had more Deacons in rural areas, we might end up with more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

Rose,

I don't see how, my friend - assuming you are, of course, referring to the Permanent and not the Transitional Diaconate...?


:unsure:

By keeping rural churches open, and helping keep communal prayer and social activities in full swing in town parishes, there would be more inducement for our young people to remain within the Church. While we are losing our teenagers there is little hope of getting more priests and religious.

Few Permanent Deacons can become priests. Most of them are married. Whatever they say about the Permanent Diaconate being a unique vocation, entirely different from priesthhod, it seems to me that they are in fact the priest's "helpers".

What puzzles me is, a permanent Deacon is directly responsible to the bishop, not the parish priest.

But, Rose, isn't keeping communal prayer and social activities in full swing something that anybody can do?

Has the presence of a permanent deacon in a rural parish anywhere in the country safeguarded that parish from closure? Are there statistics to show that vocations have increased since a permanent deacon was 'assigned' to a parish?

Rose of York,Sep 8 2006

10:13 PM

Patrick Mac Sweeney,Sep 8 2006

08:49 PM

But, Rose, isn't keeping communal prayer and social activities in full swing something that anybody can do?

Has the presence of a permanent deacon in a rural parish anywhere in the country safeguarded that parish from closure? Are there statistics to show that vocations have increased since a permanent deacon was 'assigned' to a parish?

No parish community can "live" without the backing of the parish priest and hierarchy. The message from bishops is:

you are a mere chapel of ease. The church miles away is your parish church. The sooner you lot get that into your heads, the better. We do not encourage lay-led prayer meetings.

The danger is, that without a single person, duly authorised, co-ordinating activities, Blessed Holders of Church Keys are in a position to do their own thing for their own group, without publicising events to the whole parish. I have seen that happen. A deacon would be the hub around which the community revolves.

As for vocations, I am only saying the more going on, to attract the young teenagers and adults to go to the church more than once a week, the greater the likelihood that at least some of them will become really involved and want to take it a step further.

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

03:21 PM

Patrick

Quote:

 

So far, I can see that the Permanent Diaconate can relieve the burden on the priest in certain functions and assist him in others. Fair enough. But it is largely pointless (if that is where it ends).

Italics mine (just to keep your quote in context.

I think that is the point: - to help priests.

Would you say it was good for priests to have some specific help?

Would you say it was good for parishoners to have some help, indirectly, by having the priest helped by the permanent deacon?

Quote:

 

It's a cul-de-sac of a vocation, is it not?

Yes. That is specifically what the permanent diaconate is.

I say again, I have considerable sympathy with your point of view. It was mine until I experienced the introduction of a permanent deacon into our parish. Your dismissing the permanent diaconate because it does not directly increase the number of priests is jumping to a different agenda. We do need more priests but that is a different agenda from the permanent diaconate. But our hard pressed priests can do with all the help they can get and in this I think the permanent diaconate is a good thing.

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 10 2006

04:31 PM

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

02:21 PM

Patrick

Quote:

 

So far, I can see that the Permanent Diaconate can relieve the burden on the priest in certain functions and assist him in others. Fair enough. But it is largely pointless (if that is where it ends).

Italics mine (just to keep your quote in context.

I think that is the point: - to help priests.

Would you say it was good for priests to have some specific help?

Gerard,

Thanks for your considered reply.

Personally, I think that priests in parishes get far too much help, even without the presence of a Permanent Deaon. I think all this has made some of today's Priests lazy - the more others do, the less the Priests do.

Let's see what help the average Parish Priest receives:

He receives help in running the parish through various lay committees.
He receives help in distributing Holy Communion at Mass, from lay members of the Extraordinary Ministry of Holy Communion.
Extra time is freed up by the aforementioned EMHCs who will also administer Holy Communion to those who cannot attend Mass for various reasons.

However did our Priests cope prior to the re-introduction of the Permanent Diaconate and the various lay ministries that now exist in our Churches? :rolleyes:

Quote:

 

Would you say it was good for parishoners to have some help, indirectly, by having the priest helped by the permanent deacon?

I'm not sure.

Quote:

 

It's a cul-de-sac of a vocation, is it not?

Quote:

 

Yes. That is specifically what the permanent diaconate is.

Quote:

 

I say again, I have considerable sympathy with your point of view. It was mine until I experienced the introduction of a permanent deacon into our parish. Your dismissing the permanent diaconate because it does not directly increase the number of priests is jumping to a different agenda. We do need more priests but that is a different agenda from the permanent diaconate. But our hard pressed priests can do with all the help they can get and in this I think the permanent diaconate is a good thing.

Gerard, the PD does not directly increase the number of Priests, I know. But it's existence does nothing to stop the decline in vocations but could possibly add to it, by it's very existence.

Derekap,Sep 10 2006

04:58 PM

Very few Priests get further than Canon or Monsignor so their vocation is also mostly a dead-end literally!

Derekap

Patrick,Sep 10 2006

05:18 PM

Derekap,Sep 10 2006

03:58 PM

Very few Priests get further than Canon or Monsignor so their vocation is also mostly a dead-end literally!

Derekap

Derek,

Would that be because today we have more priests over 70 years of age than we do in the 30-40 age group?

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

05:19 PM

Derekap

True, but its hard to think of priest as dead end. Actually best not to think of priest in career terms - almost certainly an approach that would lead to problems.

Patrick,

Quote:

 

However did our Priests cope prior to the re-introduction of the Permanent Diaconate and the various lay ministries that now exist in our Churches?

Until very recently all the parishes I have experienced had three priests. Even though for 20 years we have been told numbers are decreasing it is only in the last 6 years that I actually experienced it. When it happened it was rapid. We went from three to less than one in a period of about 2 years. be that as it may, in the past there were about 3 priests per parish.

Gerry

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

05:21 PM

All,

Actually. Parish Priest used to be a career promotion!

Gerry

Rose of York,Sep 10 2006

05:48 PM

Three priests used to do at least ten times as much useful work as is now done by one priest.

Derekap,Sep 10 2006

07:19 PM

But perhaps there wasn't so much civil and even ecclesiastical bureaucracy as there is now.

Derekap

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

07:21 PM

Rose and Patrick,

I just dont see this. I know no lazy priests or inefficient ones. The priests I know are run off their feet. Maximum numbers of Masses every Sunday, weekday Masses, funerals, weddings, baptisms, parish catechesis (particularly preparing children and parents for sacraments - something that used to be done in schools).

Then there are the wider responsibilities, responding to requests for preaching, special masses and diocesan leadership committments.

Obviously we know different priests, but I worry more about the stress my priests are under rather than any lack of work.

Gerry

Rose of York,Sep 10 2006

08:34 PM

Derekap,Sep 10 2006

07:19 PM

But perhaps there wasn't so much civil and even ecclesiastical bureaucracy as there is now.

Derekap

Priests are expected (by their bishops) to deal with civil and professional matters that they do not understand and for which they are not trained. That is unfair on the priest and his parishioners.

Gerard,Sep 10 2006

07:21 PM

Rose and Patrick,

Then there are the wider responsibilities, responding to requests for preaching, special masses and diocesan leadership committments.

Obviously we know different priests, but I worry more about the stress my priests are under rather than any lack of work.

Gerry

Gerry, my priest works very hard indeed. Every week he looks more tired, depressed and worn out. For some reason he gives the highest priority to ecumenical matters, and other tasks for which parishioners are better equipped than he. Some wisecrack recently called him "The Manager". He's a nice, hard working man, but some people just wish he would show an interest in people who are sick for long periods. The situation is not unusual.

I have known plenty of priests who work extremely hard, and just one who was bone idle. One only, in many years.

As for requests for preaching is it right that sick people should be deprived of the support of their own parish priests, if those same priests can find the time to respond to requests for preaching at "special events"? That is open to debate. One's opinion will be coloured by one's situation in life.

Eve,Sep 12 2006

11:39 AM

Gerry and Rose:

The last two posts have been used for a new discussion,

National Conference of Priests (NCP)

Reading through the lines of the report I think it may lead to a debate (here and elsewhere) about future roles.

Rose of York,Sep 13 2006

02:01 AM

Rather than start yet another thread about priests I quote here the words of a Pope, on the decline in vocations.

Quote:

 

68. Nevertheless We do not deny that this Our joy is overshadowed by a certain sorrow since We learn that in not a few countries the number of vocations to the priesthood and to the religious life is constantly decreasing. We have already given the principal reasons which account for this fact and there is no reason why We should return to them now. Rather do We trust that those educators of youth who have succumbed to errors in this matter, will repudiate them as soon as they are detected, and will consequently seriously resolve both to correct them and to do what they can to provide every help for the youth entrusted to their care who feel themselves called by divine grace to aspire to the priesthood or to embrace the religious life, in order that they may be able to reach so noble a goal. May God grant that new and larger ranks of priests, religious men and women, equal in number and virtue to the current necessities of the Church, may soon go forth to cultivate the vineyard of the Lord.

Sacre Virginatas

Those words were written fifty two years ago.

Gerard,Sep 13 2006

09:16 AM

Rose

This thread is about deacons.

Hnever the less your post was interesting. Particularly this bit:

Quote:

 

We have already given the principal reasons which account for this fact and there is no reason why We should return to them now. Rather do We trust that those educators of youth who have succumbed to errors in this matter, will repudiate them as soon as they are detected,

I thought that was rather good. 52 years ago he knew what the problem was.
Is anyone able to enlighten us as to what the problems referred to by Pope Pius XII actually were?

Gerry

Rose of York,Sep 13 2006

10:14 AM

Gerard,Sep 13 2006

09:16 AM

Rose

This thread is about deacons.


Gerry

I know, Gerry, but the main reason people in some parishes want deacons is because they have no priests.

When I read that about the poor religious education, I thought, as I often do, "So much for the Good Old Days." Pope Pius XII did not name the countries that had the problem. African missions were very active. British schools were doing a good job.

Patrick,Sep 13 2006

11:26 AM

The answer may lie here, in the same encyclical:

Quote:

 

8. However, since there are some who, straying from the right path in this matter, so exalt marriage as to rank it ahead of virginity and thus depreciate chastity consecrated to God and clerical celibacy, Our apostolic duty demands that We now in a particular manner declare and uphold the Church's teaching on the sublime state of virginity, and so defend Catholic truth against these errors.

Gerard,Sep 13 2006

12:14 PM

Patrick,

Well, as to celibacy it need not be celibacy only. It could be both celibate priests alongside married priests as happens in the Orthodox Church. Where only celibate priests may become Bishops.

And strict enforcement of celibacy for priests does not seem to have solved the problem. So I doubt this was it.

Gerry

Patrick,Sep 13 2006

12:42 PM

Gerard,Sep 13 2006

11:14 AM

Patrick,

Well, as to celibacy it need not be celibacy only. It could be both celibate priests alongside married priests as happens in the Orthodox Church. Where only celibate priests may become Bishops.

And strict enforcement of celibacy for priests does not seem to have solved the problem. So I doubt this was it.

Gerry

Gerry,

The whole encyclical is about the Consecrated Virginity of the Priesthood (ie celibacy), so why would the problems Pius XII mentioned be about anything else?

:unsure:

Gerard,Sep 13 2006

01:06 PM

Patrick,

Hmmm.........

Perhaps I should have read the encyclical.

But

Vocations are still in decline, so did a committment to celibacy answer the problem?

Gerry

Deacon Robert,Sep 23 2006

04:23 PM

Patrick and Gerard,

Speaking to the Priests that I have worked with, celebacy is not the problem.

Some feel that they may be part of the problem because they do not have the time to encourage the young men. Some are afraid to speak out on how special it is to be a priest, because they fear offending women. Their manner of dress (here in the US many do not dress in clericals).

We as parents, deserve some of the blame. Do we speak to our children about vocations to the priesthood and religious life?

There are many reasons for the decline in vocations. My Diocese has increased our seminarians from 6 two tears ago to 38 today. The difference is the bishop, priests, and deacons are out there recruiting.

Dcn. Robert

Gerard,Sep 23 2006

08:00 PM

Hi Deacon Robert,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. I hope you stick around and post some more. Have I met you on another forum? CCC Garg?

It comes as no surprise to me that priests do not see celibacy as part of the problem. This is what they say to ma as well. However, I think they are in a poor postion to judge. They have the gift of celibacy.

Gerry

Deacon Robert,Sep 24 2006

03:15 PM

Gerry,
I think we have met on the other board. I don't spend much time there, as it is not very active.I will visit here, if allowed, and hopefully be able to answer questions or take part in some of the threads.

Dcn Robert

Rose of York,Sep 24 2006

03:54 PM

Deacon Robert,Sep 24 2006

03:15 PM

I will visit here, if allowed, and hopefully be able to answer questions or take part in some of the threads.

Dcn Robert

Deacon Robert

On behalf of the Admin Team I say we go on further than allow you. We are delighted to have a member of the clergy on the forum.

Have you looked at the pinned discussion at the top of the menu list? There is one "Welcome to Cyberforum". Do take a look, there are a few welcoming messages for you.

My first question to you is:
Would it be a good idea for the Bishops to have a poster printed, to be displayed on all Catholic premises, urging men to come forward and enquire about the Diaconate?

tomais,Sep 24 2006

04:06 PM

Deacons; a couple of weeks ago the Scottish Catholic Observer carried a piece reviewing a national meeting for deacons at Saint marys Kinoull,Perth,
Lots of details oncerning their work ordination etc.
So well publicised here- well ? Only if the pews buy and read the press of course.
Why doesnt Joseph work on this story and have someone do a bit of research for the English Welsh readership?
Toamis and it is pouring down here in the Capital