Should churches pay water rates?

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Should churches pay water rates?
Topic Started: Friday, 6. June 2008, 20:32 (145 Views)
Derekap	Friday, 6. June 2008, 20:32 Post #1
Posts: 3,415 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	I have just read this evening on the BBC Manchester News Website that all churches in the Greater Manchester area (England) are threatened with having to pay for their water supply. This will come as a shock to the financial well-being of some churches as it will be paid on the basis of the area of their property. I have always assumed that churches paid for their supply of water. Can anyone enlighten me?
	Derekap


Rose of York	Friday, 6. June 2008, 23:52 Post #2
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Derekap Friday, 6. June 2008, 20:32 I have always assumed that churches paid for their supply of water. Can anyone enlighten me? They do not pay. This goes back to the days when water was provided by first, councils, then water boards that were in public ownership. Householders paid domestic rates. Businesses and organisations (an example could be a golf club) paid business rates. All paid water rates, which was in law a tax. Churches, being registered charities, are exempt from taxes including rates. Now here is a problem. Water charges are no longer levied as a tax. Water is sold and drainage facilities provided, by businesses, which aim to provide profit for investors. At present, those companies are compelled to provide water and drainage services, and maintain the mains, free of charge, to charities. There does not seem, to me, to be a logical reason for any business to be compelled to deliver anything to any customer, for free. Churches pay for altar wine, altar bread, flowers, cleaning materials, insurance, heating and lighting, maintenance. We do not expect to receive those items for nothing! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7439784.stm BBC Radio Manchester Churches across Greater Manchester could be forced to close because of a new water charge, clergymen warn. It is being introduced by United Utilities to cover the cost of surface water drainage. The water company, which earlier this week announced massive profits, says it is following advice from regulator Ofwat to make the system fairer. John Applegate, archdeacon of Bolton, said the charge will be crippling for churches which previously did not pay. Environment minister and Oldham East and Saddleworth, Phil Woolas, said all the rainwater that falls onto patios and car parks and other hard surfaces and goes into sewers, is then treated as sewage and goes through an expensive treating process. He added: "So this is part of the change that we are having to introduce to make sure we don't spend billions on treating rainwater - which is just stupid." Churches were previously exempt from water rates but must now pay this new charge which will be calculated on the surface area of their site. Churchgoers will just have to stop being so mean with their offerings, or get stuck in and raise funds. What is the average cost of a cup of coffee and a sandwich? Ł4 or Ł5. A pie and a pint? Ł5 or Ł6. How much is the average donation to a church offertory collection? Peanuts.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Derekap	Saturday, 7. June 2008, 11:03 Post #3
Posts: 3,415 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose wrote: "There does not seem, to me, to be a logical reason for any business to be compelled to deliver anything to any customer, for free. Churches pay for altar wine, altar bread, flowers, cleaning materials, insurance, heating and lighting, maintenance. We do not expect to receive those items for nothing!" I doubt if many Catholics realise the wine must be paid for and the breads for Holy Communion even if they are made by convents and all the other items. I think most feel they are giving to the priest and/or the "church" not realising there are bills to settle - just like a home. Our fuel bills have gone up so have those of our churches, yet we expect to be well-lit and comfortable in Winter when we attend Holy Mass! Edited by Derekap, Saturday, 7. June 2008, 11:04.
	Derekap


KatyA	Sunday, 8. June 2008, 20:40 Post #4
Administrator Posts: 5,417 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Derekap Friday, 6. June 2008, 20:32 I have just read this evening on the BBC Manchester News Website that all churches in the Greater Manchester area (England) are threatened with having to pay for their water supply. This will come as a shock to the financial well-being of some churches as it will be paid on the basis of the area of their property. I have always assumed that churches paid for their supply of water. Can anyone enlighten me? It isn't just churches in Manchester which will be affected by the changes. Hundreds of people have signed an online petition in protest at the effect the changes will have on St Luke's Church in Thornaby, Teesside. Charities and churches currently have exemptions and relief from "run-off" charges, but it is proposed they will be removed from 2010. Industry regulator Ofwat has been urged to intervene. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/7386647.stm The petition can be found at Petition the Prime Minister to instruct water companies to return to charging churches as charities rather than as business premises



Phil_sfo	Sunday, 8. June 2008, 21:12 Post #5
Posts: 418 Group: Members Member #101 Joined: September 8, 2007	I noticed in this week's Glasgow Observer that churches in Scsotland will continue to have their water supplies free.



Rose of York	Monday, 9. June 2008, 21:59 Post #6
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	I have mixed views on this issue. Water charges should not be a burden on any church if a water meter is fitted. The problem is the drainage element of the bill. One church with a congregation of, say, 70, may be a huge Victorian edifice in a low income area, while a much smaller building in a less poor area may have 500 people with high average incomes. The larger the floor area, the higher the charge. The smaller the congregation, the lower the parish income. The larger, poorer Victorian church will need to spend more on heating and maintenance. We do not expect to get the power and building materialsfor free. Is the solution to dispose of uneconomic buildings and replace them with properties that are cheaper to run? An alternative would be a fund, levied on the better off parishes, and not on the poor ones, to offer financial assistance. Getting a big bill does tend to stimulate fund raising, and improve parish social life.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Derekap	Tuesday, 10. June 2008, 11:35 Post #7
Posts: 3,415 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose wrote: "Is the solution to dispose of uneconomic buildings and replace them with properties that are cheaper to run? An alternative would be a fund, levied on the better off parishes, and not on the poor ones, to offer financial assistance." I have usually been under the impression that larger parishes are "taxed" by the diocese for the expenses of running it and also to help poorer parishes. I have known an occasional extra collection for poorer parishes. The question of introducing charging charities for the supply and drainage of water is probably caused by suppliers being more commercial than charitable - particularly in these days of reducing church attendance. The expenses of running and maintaining very large churches - particuarly more ornate ones, is often a factor when diocese are faced with dwindling congregations due to the demolition of residential housing in the catchment area. There is very naturally an emotive issue from people who though they have moved feel very attached to their former parish church. One case some years ago was the old cathedral in Middlesbrough. The building needed expensive refurbishment but the number of people it served had very much dwindled and I think it was just a little too far from the heart of the shopping and business are for casual visitation. The new Cathedral is purposely built in a new and growing residential area.
	Derekap


Michael	Tuesday, 10. June 2008, 17:34 Post #8
Posts: 260 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: September 26, 2006	Is the solution to dispose of uneconomic buildings and replace them with properties that are cheaper to run? I hope no bishops are reading that comment, it is bad enough fighting a rear guard action as a poorer parish with plenty of vultures wanting to shut you down and sell the land to help consolidate the larger parishes finances, yes that was actually suggested about certain parishes in my area



Rose of York	Tuesday, 10. June 2008, 17:41 Post #9
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Michael Tuesday, 10. June 2008, 17:34 Is the solution to dispose of uneconomic buildings and replace them with properties that are cheaper to run? I hope no bishops are reading that comment Michael, it was a rhetorical question, that might well be in the minds of the bishops. There is a tendency to treat some parishes as expendable. I will not be surprised if some churches are closed to provide capital sums so the interest will be available to pay for the expenses of other churches. Fund raising is a better solution, it builds communities, gets people together.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Karin	Sunday, 15. June 2008, 16:18 Post #10
Karin Posts: 825 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: September 26, 2006	Churches over here don't seem to be exempt from much, so they have to pay all their utilities, which includes water. I suppose that's why a lot of them have large baptismal fonts....they recycle the water! Saves on the bill!
	Karin Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas. "Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."


MickCook	Friday, 20. June 2008, 02:38 Post #11
Posts: 633 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose of York Monday, 9. June 2008, 21:59 II have mixed views on this issue. Water charges should not be a burden on any church if a water meter is fitted. The problem is the drainage element of the bill. One church with a congregation of, say, 70, may be a huge Victorian edifice in a low income area, while a much smaller building in a less poor area may have 500 people with high average incomes. The larger the floor area, the higher the charge. The smaller the congregation, the lower the parish income. The larger, poorer Victorian church will need to spend more on heating and maintenance. We do not expect to get the power and building materialsfor free. Is the solution to dispose of uneconomic buildings and replace them with properties that are cheaper to run? An alternative would be a fund, levied on the better off parishes, and not on the poor ones, to offer financial assistance. Getting a big bill does tend to stimulate fund raising, and improve parish social life. The drainage element of the bill, I'm given to understand, can be solved by dispersing the water naturally over land/grounds rather than draining it into the sewers - for which the water company/authority will give a credit (I believe this was reported on the BBC's 'Look North' ) If as Rose suggested, a water meter is fitted it may help reduce costs further. Edited by MickCook, Friday, 20. June 2008, 02:41.
	:) Mick The Cook Companies


John Sweeney	Wednesday, 9. July 2008, 15:19 Post #12
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	Picking this up a little late but I am puzzled by the topic. I used to "do the books" for my parish and we definitely did pay water rates and still do. The charity laws are the same for Wales and England so either we've been paying unnecessarily or Machester churches have been getting a freebie! I'll investigate John



Rose of York	Wednesday, 9. July 2008, 17:39 Post #13
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	John were the rates for the presbytery or a parish club, not the church?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


John Sweeney	Wednesday, 9. July 2008, 20:06 Post #14
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	Ah, that could well be the answer Rose. I'll let you know. John



Rose of York	Wednesday, 9. July 2008, 20:22 Post #15
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	John, a club that functions exists solely as a provider of social life, and contributes nothing to the registered aim (spread of the Catholic faith) of the registered charity (diocese) is classed as a business, liable for Corporation tax and rates. A few years ago the Charity Commission had a purge and decreed that social clubs operating from church property must pay the local market rent to the parish, because the buildings were built using tax exempt charitable funds (parish money). It is probable many parishes are unaware of this. "Good servants of the parish" tend to be adept at ignorance of the law.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


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