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Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church
Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,407 Views)
Gerard

I see you are laying down the law now Penfold. Telling us what can and cannot be discussed in this thread.

It would have been interesting to discuss how democracy should operate within the church. (It happens in Acts and it happens in monasteries). But you lay down the law and tell us we cannot discuss democracy.

It would have been interesting to tease out the roles of priests and laity but you refuse to so that.

It was and is good of you to come and talk but you find that we are challenging rather than submissive you dont like it.

There is a word for this behaviour - clericalism.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Gerard
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 09:32
I see you are laying down the law now Penfold. Telling us what can and cannot be discussed in this thread.

It would have been interesting to discuss how democracy should operate within the church. (It happens in Acts and it happens in monasteries). But you lay down the law and tell us we cannot discuss democracy.

It would have been interesting to tease out the roles of priests and laity but you refuse to so that.

It was and is good of you to come and talk but you find that we are challenging rather than submissive you dont like it.

There is a word for this behaviour - clericalism.

Gerry
Not at all simply reminding people that the thread is about Papal Infallibility. If one wishes to discuss the role of laity or the nature of priesthood or democracy in the church then all I am asking is that these be discussed in the appropriate threads Papal Infallibility is a specific topic and has already on this thread been confused with the wider topic of Church Infallibility and the issue of child abuse has also been dragged in as has a totally unwarranted accusation that unless engaged in saying the mass a priest is a selfish individual "Acting on his own behalf"

One of the problems with this forum is that people love to diverge from the main thread and throw up a smoke screen of ancillary topics so that the main debate becomes sidetracked.
Papal Infallibility is the issue here and my comments were not laying down the law they were simply a statement that if this thread is to go down the usual meandering path of the same old clergy and hierarchy bashing then I can offer nothing further, you can carry on as you wish.
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Gerard

I dont think people throw up smoke screens or otherwise deliberately sidetrack threads - this is just how converstions go. Thats how non-computer conversations go. But I agree we do try stick to the topic and are brought back, often fequently.

"Same old clergy bashing" - thats an intersting response. On the one hand I dont want to be part of that but on the other hand its obvious that I am dicontent with the endemic clericalism that infantilises the laity. When I criticise clergy, but more particularly hierarchy, it is motivated by a desire for change, and not to bash people. I have wondered about the rather extreme ant-clericalism that I read exists in France and why that might be. And wonder if we could go that way. If there is an atmosphere of "same old clergy bashing" might it not give clergy pause for thought? That there might be something very wrong? And it might be them, or more specifically their culture.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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If a person lacks the maturity and moral courage to challenge their priest if he is at fault then that is something for the individual to address. Of cause if they prefer to hide behind the argument that they would challenge but they don't wont to upset him then that again is their problem. If they say they would challenge but don't know how then perhaps they need to go and study and find out how. It is not the fault of Papal Infallibility that people lack the maturity. I have seen far to many priests leave the active ministry because the laity treat them with contempt and far from an age of clericalism we are in Europe suffering an age of anti-clericalism. It is a long time since priests were on pedicels and yet in spite of the recognition in Vat II of the importance of the laity all that has resulted is a decline of the useful Lay Societies such as the CWL, KSC, SVP and others but an increase of Extraordinary ministers, readers and others cluttering the sacristy before mass seeking to get closer to the alter. As ever after the revolution far from smashing the pedicels they are mounted by those who pushed the occupants off, but the church needs both laity and clergy and all I ask is that we allow each to do what they are called to do. The Pope is the head of the Church on Earth and as such enjoys the Unique Privilege of being able to receive divine revelation and make pronouncements accordingly . If anyone else claims to have a revelation, such as Bernadette in Lourdes, then they are subject to the scrutiny of the church. Papal Infallibility is the doctrine which defines the conditions required for the Pope to make Infallible declarations. Since there has only been one such declaration, on the Assumption, I fail to see how it has impinged on the freedom of the Laity to fulfil their full potential. It is not the church who infantilises the laity it is the Laity who lack the courage to act with maturity.
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Gerard

Penfold2
Monday, 20. December 2010, 23:50
I am sorry but in faith and morals are not matters for democracy, the world tried that it was called , Sodom and Gomorrah, Caligula's Rome or anyone of 1,000,000s of hedonistic societies both past and present.
He who lives longest sees most of the game ;)

So, to continue:

The fact that catholics, perhaps most, find mention of the word democracy incongruous suggests to me brainwashing more than anything else. Each time I mentioned democracy I mentioned Acts. This was to indicate that what I was suggesting was not something peculiar or extreme but something that was part of the early church and could therefore be part of the modern church. Now I did not mention voting on faith and morals. But please note that is precisely what Ecumenical Councils do. So there is, in fact democracy in the church. Most of us are excluded from that particular parliament but there are such a large number of Bishops that it really can be relied on to be representative. By and large I think these Councils come up with good decisions. In fact they are the check on the power of the pope. So popes and, especially the curia, dont like having them. One of the councils decided that councils should meet every 5 years but, perhaps unsurprisingly, they dont.

So there is some democracy at the top (and it is straight out of Acts) but that excludes everyone below the level of bishop. (note the terminology - below). I also note that in recent times many bishop complain that when they go to Rome they feel treated like altar boys. So there is much wrong there as well.

But back to democracy and brainwashing. I think that during the centuries when Rome possessed temporal power (what a shame) it used its spiritual authority to enforce worldly power and in this process the brainwashing happened. And we are left with it. Not that I mentioned dmocracy and Penfold immediately jumped to faith and morals.

In earlier posts I also mentioned monasteries. You often find the purest Christianity in monasteries. And I find it interesting how much democracy one finds there. Not being a monk I am going on what I read but obviously all the monks elect their Abott. They meet frequently (every day? or is it every week?) in chapter to discuss issues to do with the monastery. They also seem to understand the need to check and balance power. In the "Rule" I read, the monks had to listen to and be guided by God, the abott, and each other. The abott had to listen to and be guided by God the community and individual monks. There was a third leg which i have forgotten now but notice the balance of power. They understand how power corrupts and the need to keep it in check.

We have none of this outwith the monastery. All we have is top down power. No check, no balance.

Back to Acts: When the 12 decided (collectively) that they needed to appoint more helpers they said to the greek jews, the ones complaining, "Choose from among yourselves seven good men". Note who did the choosing - the community. The hoi poloi. I am told that in the early church the congregations chose the pastors. I am happy to be corrected on that but that mechanism would seem to me to probably work.

In the short term can see no possible argument against elected parish councils. With frequent (3-5 years?) elections. where the council really ran the parish. The presbyterian church does this. has done so since the reformation and so we know it works. And is it not interesting that as soon as they broke away they instituted dmocracy. probably because it was obvious even 400 years ago how unhealthy our power structures were and are.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Penfold,

You posted while I was writing. There is much in what you say that I would agree with and, indeed, already have. You wont find me in the sacristry before Mass. The group I belong to decided to look for things to do "on the fringes - where others tend not to look".

I had wondered anout "entering an age of ant-clericalism" and, yes I se it in secular society. I havent noticed in church society but then its probably more noticeable on the reciving end.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Penfold2
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 09:46
Papal Infallibility is a specific topic and has already on this thread been confused with the wider topic of Church Infallibility and the issue of child abuse has also been dragged in as has a totally unwarranted accusation that unless engaged in saying the mass a priest is a selfish individual "Acting on his own behalf"
For goodness sake, Penfold. It was I who said in Post 100 of this thread something about a priest, in some circumstances, acting on his own behalf. There was no accusation of selfishness. When my parish priest puts his socks on, has a shower, shaves, phones his parents, when he goes out with a friend for lunch, a game of golf or a pint, he is I think acting on his own behalf and I want am happy for him to have some relaxation.

This is off topic, but the accusation was made, publicly, so I defend myself publicly to put the record straight.

Quote:
 
Papal Infallibility is the issue here and my comments were not laying down the law they were simply a statement that if this thread is to go down the usual meandering path of the same old clergy and hierarchy bashing then I can offer nothing further, you can carry on as you wish.

Members made observations on the relationship between clergy and laity. Critical observations are not necessarily bashing.


Quote:
 
Papal Infallibility is a specific topic and has already on this thread been confused with the wider topic of Church Infallibility
It was I who started this discussion and on the first page I thanked Paduan for a link to an article that gives an explanation of Infallibility, in covers Church and Papal Infallibility. I see a connection which I propose we discuss.

How about us starting fresh?


Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Paduan
Tuesday, 22. January 2008, 02:00
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm has some helpful explanation, albeit somewhat long-winded.
The article, from New Advent Catholic Encyclopaedia, covers Church Infallibility and Papal Infallibility.

Opening paragraph:
Quote:
 
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals. In this article the subject will be treated under the following heads:


There are links leading to
I. True Meaning of Infallibility
II. Proof of the Church's Infallibility
III. Organs of Infallibility
Ecumenical Councils
The Pope
Their Mutual Relations
IV. Scope and Object of Infallibility
V. What Teaching is Infallible?[/quote]

The Catholic Encyclopaedia was published a hundred years ago. It is not a Vatican document. Teaching has developed, but it looks to me as thought the article will provide a good basis for discussion.

Keep the Faith!

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KatyA

Penfold2
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 10:55
. I have seen far to many priests leave the active ministry because the laity treat them with contempt and far from an age of clericalism we are in Europe suffering an age of anti-clericalism. It is a long time since priests were on pedicels and yet in spite of the recognition in Vat II of the importance of the laity all that has resulted is a decline of the useful Lay Societies such as the CWL, KSC, SVP and others but an increase of Extraordinary ministers, readers and others cluttering the sacristy before mass seeking to get closer to the alter. As ever after the revolution far from smashing the pedicels they are mounted by those who pushed the occupants off, but the church needs both laity and clergy and all I ask is that we allow each to do what they are called to do.
Well said Penfold2 :agree:
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Rose of York
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The relationship between laity may or may not have some connection with the Doctrine of Infallibility, I am not sure, and would like to learn.

I suggest that in order to put behind us all other wee digressions we return to the suggestion on the first page, that we take a look at the link Paduan gave us, on the first page of this thread.

Paduan
Tuesday, 22. January 2008, 02:00
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm has some helpful explanation, albeit somewhat long-winded.
The article, from New Advent Catholic Encyclopaedia, covers Church Infallibility and Papal Infallibility.

Opening paragraph:
Quote:
 
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals. In this article the subject will be treated under the following heads:


There are links leading to
I. True Meaning of Infallibility
II. Proof of the Church's Infallibility
III. Organs of Infallibility
Ecumenical Councils
The Pope
Their Mutual Relations
IV. Scope and Object of Infallibility
V. What Teaching is Infallible?[/quote]

The Catholic Encyclopaedia was published a hundred years ago. It is not a Vatican document. Teaching has developed, but it looks to me as thought the article will provide a good basis for discussion.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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The Catholic Encyclopaedia article has sections on

Proof of the Church's Infallibility
and
Explanation of papal infallibility

I have tried to study them but would appreciate some guidance from those better verses than I on Scripture and the early development of the Church
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 14:40
It was I who said in Post 100 of this thread something about a priest, in some circumstances, acting on his own behalf. There was no accusation of selfishness.
I refer you to post 97.

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Gerard

This is so unfortunate. I recognise in that post (97) no malice or even criticism. I think Rose was even trying to be helpful. But there seems to be a deep misunderstanding of what the role of a priest (in general) is. I get the impression that Rose assumes one switches it on for certain tasks and switches it off when the task is completer and then the priest becomes like everyone else. And I probably think along similar lines. But I get the impression that Penfold considers there is no respite from the role of being priest. If I am correct in this we have a classic example of a breakdown in communication - because the underlying assumptions are so different.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Penfold2
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 18:55
Rose of York
Tuesday, 21. December 2010, 14:40
It was I who said in Post 100 of this thread something about a priest, in some circumstances, acting on his own behalf. There was no accusation of selfishness.
I refer you to post 97.

Penfold, no way am I continuing this silly argument.

This afternoon I made an effort to get this back on topic, in a peaceable manner.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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:topicbaack:
Keep the Faith!

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