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Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church
Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,411 Views)
Gerard

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Funny isn't it, that all these reports of Vatcan I emphasise the weather, as though these secular media have suddenly become a lot of mystics observing portents!


My sources were and are catholic books.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Clare
Apr 10 2008, 10:08 AM
Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:04 AM
But does it give equal weight to all revealed truth ?

What revealed truths do you think are being downplayed, Gerry?


Collegiality !

Servant leadership ?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:10 AM
Clare
Apr 10 2008, 10:08 AM
Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:04 AM
But does it give equal weight to all revealed truth ?

What revealed truths do you think are being downplayed, Gerry?


Collegiality !

Servant leadership ?

:rolleyes:

If only!
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
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PJD

What's all this about V1 and the weather Gerry?

Meeting half-way? - Clare will beat you on that old son.

PJD
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Penfold
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:deadhorse:
On another thread reference was made to the churches teaching on contraception
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though I have doubts about infallibility and consider the issue of contaception to need some updating (post 44 on Homosexuality)
the churches teaching on contraception has never been declared infallible by any Pope, though I suspect a few parish priests have taken the lazy way out of an argument and declared it so. I wish not to go over old ground but there are many misconceptions about Papal infallibility and its teaching on contraception is one of them.


PS, I post in this thread so as not to detract from the positive discussion on the thread from which I have taken the quote,
Edited by Penfold, Friday, 17. December 2010, 20:58.
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Rose of York
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though I have doubts about infallibility and consider the issue of contaception to need some updating (post 44 on Homosexuality)

Ours is the only Church that makes the claim to infallibility. If I could not believe in it I would consider the claim to be outrageous, and go to the nearest church or chapel or the one with the nicest minister or the most sociable congregation.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

I'm surprised that the Real Presence wouln't hold you in even if the Pope was potentially fallible.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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Penfold2
 
the churches teaching on contraception has never been declared infallible by any Pope
Indeed.

It is also probably significant that Pope Paul chose to state the teaching in a format that is second from bottom in the "pecking order" of papal documents i.e. Motu Proprio ... Encyclical ... Papal Bull ... Apostolic Constitution
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though I suspect a few parish priests have taken the lazy way out of an argument and declared it so.

It's not just lazy priests, Bishop Patrick O'Donoghue in his generally very good "Fit For Mission?" analyses a couple of years ago chose to describe obedience to Humanae Vitae as the "litmus test" of Catholicism.
Edited by Mairtin, Friday, 17. December 2010, 21:48.
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Friday, 17. December 2010, 21:46
I'm surprised that the Real Presence wouln't hold you in even if the Pope was potentially fallible.
It would hold me in the Catholic Church, but what if I chose not to believe in Papal Infallibility and therefore was susceptible to the influence of local Anglicans? One of our local vicars is convinced he is a validly ordained priest and his parishioners think they go to Mass on Sundays, and experience the Real Presence.

I'll stick with the Church that has the infallibility in matters of faith and morals. I believe it.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

The teaching on the invalidity of Anglican Orders is not formally infallible, as I understand it.

Of course, the Orthodox Churches provide the joy of the Real Presence without Infallibility!
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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KatyA

Mairtin
Friday, 17. December 2010, 21:47

It is also probably significant that Pope Paul chose to state the teaching in a format that is second from bottom in the "pecking order" of papal documents i.e. Motu Proprio ... Encyclical ... Papal Bull ... Apostolic Constitution
I thought HV simply confirmed what the Church had always taught regarding contraception, so it wouldn't matter what the format was.
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Friday, 17. December 2010, 22:44
Mairtin
Friday, 17. December 2010, 21:47

It is also probably significant that Pope Paul chose to state the teaching in a format that is second from bottom in the "pecking order" of papal documents i.e. Motu Proprio ... Encyclical ... Papal Bull ... Apostolic Constitution
I thought HV simply confirmed what the Church had always taught regarding contraception, so it wouldn't matter what the format was.
The only previous teaching I know of was the encyclical Casti Connubi 1930
http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/105139/1/#new
Keep the Faith!

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KatyA

The Didache (c. AD 100-150), which explicitly condemned abortion, also implicitly condemned contraception. This document, believed to be a compendium of notes made on the post-Ascension preaching of the Apostles, refers to - and condemns - the practice of using medical means to avoid conception because the failure of those means results in a temptation toward abortion or infanticide.
Before the end of the second century, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote the catechetical treatise "Paidagogos," which synthesized the pattern of Christian education in the East and in North Africa in the first generation after the Apostles. He defends the holiness of marriage and the goodness of marital intercourse, but is adamant on the right use of marital relations: "To indulge in intercourse without intending children is to outrage nature, whom we should take as our instructor" (II, 9-10)
In succeeding decades, St. Justin the Martyr and Origen, Lactantius and Epiphanius, St. Ambrose and St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine repeated the Church's stand on contraception. It was wrong because it imitated the malpractice of the pagans; it placed carnal pleasure before the love that wants children; it profaned the generative act, which is sacred; it was indifferent to God's intention to create a soul as the normal aftermath to intercourse; it denied that God's grace will sustain a married couple who practice continence; it made those who practice it willing to commit murder by abortion if contraception fails; it was like the idolatry of those who offer up human semen to their obscene gods; it debauched the human person by making it subject to unnatural lust; it was an act of ingratitude to God, who offers the gift of human life; it was an injustice against the laws of God; and it was irrational to have sexual intercourse while excluding the desire to have children.
It is noteworthy that up to the beginning of the 5th century, most of the Church's spokesmen on the sinfulness of contraception were writing from the Near East and Northern Africa, rather than from the "juridical West." And in many cases they wrote so strenuously no only because it was a moral aberration but because, by then, it had become part of a heretical mind-set that had infected Christian circles, e.g., Manichaeism. It was St. Augustine who wrote most extensively on contraception, which the Manichaes had come to defend on ideological grounds (Pope Pius XII quoted extensively from this part of Augustine's works in his encyclical on Christian Marriage). Augustine points out that even the married can give in to their unruly passions, no less than the unmarried, the later by fornication and the former by contraception.
A list of declarations about contraception form the 4th century to the 12th would be interminable. In country after country and in every century, bishops and councils forbid "contraceptive potions," "herbs or other agents so you will not have children," "spilling the seed in coitus," "coitus interruptus," "poisons of sterility," "avoiding children by evil acts," "putting material things in the vagina [to] cause temporary or permanent sterility."
One document worthy of note, because it is so concise, is the Decretals of Pope Gregory IX (1148-1241). It defines contraception as any action taken to prevent generation, conception or birth; and declares all such acts to be homicidal in the sense that they intend to destroy life at any stage of the vital process.
In the late 16th century, Sixtus V passed a series of laws to curb the immorality of the day, including some directly concerned with both abortion and contraception. During the reign of Pius IX (1846-78), at least 5 decisions were handed down by the Holy See with regard to contraception. One of these specifically mentions that the practice is opposed to natural law, and authorizes confessors to question penitents if they have reason to suppose that contraception is being practiced. It also quotes Innocent XI's censure against those who theorize that contraception is opposed only to divine positive law and not to natural law.
In 1930, the Anglican Church allowed contraception (the first group of Christians ever to do so), which prompted Pope Pius XI to lament: "They urge married people carefully to avoid this burden, not by means of virtuous continence, which is permissible even in marriage with the consent of both parties, but by vitiating the act of nature." He then made two famous statements that have since made Catholic moral history: one on the essential sinfulness of contraception, and the other on the right of the Church in modern times, and over the centuries, to pronounce on the morality of human behavior.
Neither Pius XII, nor Paul VI, added anything new to the Church's teaching on this subject, but only restated what had always been so

It took 5 minutes to find the above references using google - unfortunately I lost the link to the pages

Source

[Edited to add link]
Edited by Patrick, Saturday, 18. December 2010, 00:27.
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Penfold
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KatyA
Friday, 17. December 2010, 23:33

It took 5 minutes to find the above references using google - unfortunately I lost the link to the pages

Source

[Edited to add link]
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Top Marks for Homework
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pete

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"To indulge in intercourse without intending children is to outrage nature, whom we should take as our instructor" (II, 9-10)

Thanks for that information Katy, dose this imply that all married couples should desist from sexual intercourse after the menopause?
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