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Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church
Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,412 Views)
Gerard

Clare,

John is a man, therefore fallible.

Gerry


All,

I started the debate on salvation only to make a point. I think the point has been well and truly made. If in doubt please consult the new thread given by Eve above.

:D

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Eve
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Gerard
Jan 25 2008, 03:50 PM
Clare,

John is a man, therefore fallible.

Gerry


All,

I started the debate on salvation only to make a point. I think the point has been well and truly made. If in doubt please consult the new thread given by Eve above.

:D

Gerry

Gerry it just happened that a new discussion developed. Salvation outside the Church is a good topic, so I decided to make a new thread from the posting.

Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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Gerard

No Problem Eve, I quite understood and understand.
As I said, I think my point had been made.

:D

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Jan 25 2008, 04:41 PM
As I said, I think my point had been made.

What was your point again?

S.A.G.

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Gerard

acrobatics
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Michaeljohn

Your point may well have been made to your satisfaction but certainly not to mine. I still see nothing to support your argument that the Church has shifted its grounds on matters of faith and morals.
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Jan 24 2008, 11:43 AM
Gerry, believe me , it will not stop future Popes from "loosing " If the need is great enough, a way will be found to set aside previous rulings, infallible or not. Some new rule will be created or an old one found which gets round whatever  ticklish historical problem is getting in the way. I am not criticising this approach--it is the way of governments and bureaucracies everywhere and in all generations when faced with difficult historical precedents. Helps make the world go round!

John

John Sweeney
Jan 24 2008, 03:16 PM
Many , many examples through history Joseph. For example, and to take a biggie, it is historical fact that many Popes--I think 30--were married and that in some centuries most priests were. Indeed many high ranking priests were sons of priests. Then the rules changed in the West to enforce celibacy. I would say that was a fundamental faith and morals issue and a major change in Church teaching. More recently, we have the example qouted of Limbo which the Vatican let us know was not much in favour with Pope Benedict to soften us up for its "abolition". I don't know about you but I was taught this as a doctrine as true as Purgatory and very much part of the Faith.

John


John, we need to consider the difference between Church discipline and faith and morals.

Adultery and bigamy come under morals. They are seriously sinful. No Pope has made an infallible declaration they are sinful. There is no need to, it is obvious to any Catholic. It was revealed in scripture. Jesus told us once a couple are married, they are bound for life.

The Church does not teach that God revealed that it is sinful for a priest to marry. At some point the Holy See decided it was wise to enforce clerical celibacy, one could say as one a condition of ordination. A man being ordained to the priesthood in the Latin Rite makes vows of celibacy and obedience. A priest who marries is sinning, he is breaking his vow and disobeying his superiors. The Holy See is at liberty to make exceptions, as it did for married Anglican clergy joining the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches us our Faith. She interprets the truth, as revealed by God. Discipline of priestly celibacy does not come under the heading of Faith.
Keep the Faith!

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Bob Crowley

One of our site writers commented that Ultramontanism was a 'result' of the policy re. Papal Infallibility in Vatican I. Actually it would be more accurate to say Ultramontanism was a cause of that ruling.

In the eyes of some ultramontanists Cardinal Newman was a Catholic Anglican. He wasn't far right enough.

There is always an equal and opposite error. There may be liberals who take things too far their way. But there are also conservatives who don't tolerate any difference of opinion from their own.

The ruling on Papal Infallibility didn't do anybody a favour, except the Ultramontanists. They pretty well set in concrete the division of the church for a few more centuries.

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Gerard

Quote:
 
The ruling on Papal Infallibility didn't do anybody a favour


Yes, I would agree with that. And I have yet to read an account of the procedings that failed to include the thunderstorm breaking the glass in the roof and showering shards and water around the participants.

I said in another thread that union with the Orthodox would involve us meeting them half way (and that would be to our benefit). Half way would involve movement on this issue.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 09:14 AM
I said in another thread that union with the Orthodox would involve us meeting them half way (and that would be to our benefit). Half way would involve movement on this issue.

So truth has to meet error half way? And that, in some way, is to truth's benefit?

Quote:
 
And I have yet to read an account of the procedings that failed to include the thunderstorm breaking the glass in the roof and showering shards and water around the participants.



What's all that about then?
S.A.G.

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Gerard

No Clare,

Half the truth has to meet the other half.

What does it mean - I don't think God was too pleased.
Supporters take it as a sign of approval.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:00 AM
Half the truth has to meet the other half.

The Church contains all revealed truth, and no other denomination or religion, no matter how much truth it contains, can add any truth that the Church does not already have. They can only add errors.




S.A.G.

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Gerard

But does it give equal weight to all revealed truth ?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:00 AM
What does it mean - I don't think God was too pleased.

Funny isn't it, that all these reports of Vatcan I emphasise the weather, as though these secular media have suddenly become a lot of mystics observing portents!

I must see if I can find out what the weather was like at various key moments during Vatican II...
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Gerard
Apr 10 2008, 11:04 AM
But does it give equal weight to all revealed truth ?

What revealed truths do you think are being downplayed, Gerry?
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