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| Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,413 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 00:35 Post #16 |
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Deleted User
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This is what the catechism has to say about infallibility: 888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417 890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms: 891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421 892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. |
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| Quicunque vult | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 00:52 Post #17 |
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John Sweeney wrote:
This implies abandoning Christian faith altogether. On the contrary, the urgent need is to convert others to the truth of the Catholic faith, and to do it by love and the beauty inherent in our faith. Difficult? Undoubtedly. Impossible? No - it's been done before. And we know that ultimately Christ will triumph. QV |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 11:19 Post #18 |
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Mick It seems to me that infallibility goes beyond binding and loosing. For one thing it binds future popes from loosing. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 12:43 Post #19 |
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Gerry, believe me , it will not stop future Popes from "loosing " If the need is great enough, a way will be found to set aside previous rulings, infallible or not. Some new rule will be created or an old one found which gets round whatever ticklish historical problem is getting in the way. I am not criticising this approach--it is the way of governments and bureaucracies everywhere and in all generations when faced with difficult historical precedents. Helps make the world go round! John |
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| Joseph | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 12:52 Post #20 |
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Any evidence of popes having done that John - on issues of Faith and Morals? |
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Joseph | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 16:16 Post #21 |
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Many , many examples through history Joseph. For example, and to take a biggie, it is historical fact that many Popes--I think 30--were married and that in some centuries most priests were. Indeed many high ranking priests were sons of priests. Then the rules changed in the West to enforce celibacy. I would say that was a fundamental faith and morals issue and a major change in Church teaching. More recently, we have the example qouted of Limbo which the Vatican let us know was not much in favour with Pope Benedict to soften us up for its "abolition". I don't know about you but I was taught this as a doctrine as true as Purgatory and very much part of the Faith. John |
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| Clare | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 16:25 Post #22 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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No it isn't. It's a change in discipline.
Again, Limbo has not been abolished, and neither has Purgatory. That a Pope might let slip his own personal views on a particular subject is not evidence of the Church changing Her teaching. |
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S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
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| Joan M | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 17:36 Post #23 |
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John, this is neither a "biggie" nor a "fundamental faith and morals issue"! Celibacy is, and always has been, a disciplinary issue. If it was a fundamental faith and morals issue, then how can the Eastern Catholic Churches, in union with the Pope, allow priests to be married when the Latin Rite do not? It can't be good for some but not for all.
Limbo was NEVER a doctrine. If you were taught this as a doctrine, well whoever taught you was in error. It has always been clear that we do not know for sure what happens babies that die without being baptised and Limbo was thought of as a possible solution to the problem. There has never, never, been a case of any doctrine, any faith requirement being changed by the Church. This is impossible. The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church and will not allow that to happen. |
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Peace and love, Joan. | |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 18:03 Post #24 |
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Clare and Joan Again, you are using the Catch 22 argument. The Church never changes its teachings on faith and morals because when it does we call them something else , like discipline or custom or some other get-out. And if anyone argues, we rule that we're infallible. That's all right then, sorted. John |
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| Michaeljohn | Thursday, 24. January 2008, 19:19 Post #25 |
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I'm not quite sure why whether priests are married or not should be a matter of faith. Neither do I understand why it is a matter of morals, unless of course you believe that "morals" automatically equals "sex". I would have thought that a married priest is every bit as moral as a married layman in which case you are presumably suggesting that I am living an immoral life because I am married. Both these subjects have always been recognised as a matter of Church discipline. What has also been recognised as a tradition and as a doctrine is that the Holy Spirit will guide Popes to avoid the Church falling into error. He takes no account of the personal worthiness or otherwise of the incumbent. As Clare and Joan have both said I doubt you could find any instances in which Popes have made pronouncements on matters of faith and morals intended to apply to the whole Church and then had them overturned by a subsequent Pope. A little less cynicism, John. This is the Church we're talking about here; not New Labour!
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| Joan M | Friday, 25. January 2008, 11:59 Post #26 |
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John, this is total rubbish! Apparently you do not know the difference between discipline and doctrine. If you really do your research you will see clearly that the only changes the Church has made (and by that I mean saying that what was required at one time is no longer required, (or vice versa), as is the case with celibacy) have been in matters of discipline. Matters of doctrine or dogma, to be held by all the faithful, have NEVER been changed. As time passes, with further study, the Church may arrive at a deepened understanding of the doctrine and expound on this, but such does not change the doctrine. Your understanding of Papal infallibility needs education. |
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Peace and love, Joan. | |
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| Eve | Friday, 25. January 2008, 12:11 Post #27 |
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Former Admin/Moderator
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Some people join forums to widen their understanding of Catholicism. |
| Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately? | |
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| Gerard | Friday, 25. January 2008, 12:18 Post #28 |
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Joan M, Your understanding of the workings of the Vatican and the Curia needs education. I suggest you listen to what John is saying. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Eve | Friday, 25. January 2008, 16:17 Post #29 |
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Former Admin/Moderator
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A secondary debate developed so 20 postings are in a new thread. Salvation outside the Church |
| Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately? | |
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| Clare | Friday, 25. January 2008, 16:32 Post #30 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Why? Is he infallible now? Joan M's understanding seems pretty sound to me. More sound than yours and John's! :P |
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8:37 PM Jul 11