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Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church
Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,403 Views)
Rose of York
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Can the Pope be in error when he teaches in communion with the bishops?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

I have read many articles that say the final test of whether a statement was infallible or not is whether it is accepted by the whole church. Cardinal Newman seemed to say this.

And theologians and others debate this point endlessly.

There seems to be some consensus that infallibility is claimed very, very rarely indeed. Often stated that only twice since the First Vatican Council.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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The infallibility of the Church and of the Pope is not wrapped up in a mysteriously surrounded
Quote:
 
"with conditions and restrictions demonstrates clearly that unless those restrictions and conditions are met then the pope can teach things that are mistaken"

No one claims that the pope cannot make mistakes or that the church is not capable of error, what the doctrine of infallibility states is that such error can not be made in relation to Doctrinal teaching on Faith and Morals. The simple truth is that all you and others complain about Gerry, such as the crusades, are not and never have been Doctrine of the Church. I have tried, unsuccessfully, several times in this forum to explain that their is a difference between Doctrine and customs and Doctrine and tradition, but at every turn been thwarted by the obtuse and ignorant who claim that they Know better and ignoring the evidence press on with to champion popular myth and legend. Well as I have done before on this thread Gerry I am tempted to do so again but I shall throw one last thought into the mix.
I do not have all the answers but I trust those who have spent a lifetime studying and exploring the scriptures and the doctrines of the church. In my limited way with my limited ability I choose to accept their distilled wisdom rather than that of others and in essence that means I trust the church. I am not blind to the faults of individuals within the church but I am willing to forgive the faults as one day I hope to be forgiven.
Infallibility is a guarantee that what the Pope and the Church protect is the Truth. What is truth is something you may wish to discuss for what is true in one generation may not be true in another however that does not mean that either generation is in error, for example: If in 1570 a person said that they could fly to London from Rome in less than an hour they would have been accused of an untruth, however today with the assistance of a jet aircraft it is true, but the same basic premiss also remains true, the person needed the assistance of a machine and without a jet aircraft it is still true to say that a person can not fly from Rome to London. When in 1250 a person claimed they could cure a person of ailments by the application of a poultice made of rotting weeds they would have been accused of lying but today a preparation made from the distillation of chemicals produced by those same rotting plants might well cure a person of certain ailments. What is important is that the guardians of Truth the church are bound in time and space like all of us.
If told a person would rise from the dead you would have said, no that is not possible and yet Jesus rose from the dead.
In faith there are things one comes to understand that without faith make no sense at all. What is truth... understand that and well Infallibility is not too hard to grasp. I would also suggest that to understand truth you must first surrender yourself to...
Edited by Penfold, Tuesday, 2. October 2012, 11:59.
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Gerard

You are correct Penfold. I will not be convinced. No matter how much you insult me or others who say things similar to me. There are different levels of authority, encyclicals do not carrry the same authority as, say, a dogmatic constitution. There are doctrines which are dogmas and doctrines which are not dogmas. And teachings (docrines) change over time. Indeed this is what the trads object to - the changing of the teachings. You anticipate some of my objections when you say that what is true in one generation need not be true in another. But changes, lets say in Biblical interpretation and the methods of Biblical interpretation have gone from being forbidden (in papal encyclicals) to being encouraged (in papal encyclicals). They were changed because more and more catholic scholars and leaders took up and promoted the forbiden methods. During this time the teaching was one thing and the practioners were doing what was forbidden. And the forbidden thing won out. Invariably, the popes hang on to the old ways for too long. But, then, I am not talking about Dogma but about what the popes are teaching about, say, Biblical criticism.

If you were claiming infallibility for dogmas we would not be disagreeing. It is the claim for infallibility for all doctrines that I cant agree with.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 2. October 2012, 15:43.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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Gerard
Tuesday, 2. October 2012, 14:09


If you were claiming infallibility for dogmas we would not be disagreeing. It is the claim for infallibility for all doctrines that I cant agree with.

Gerry
You use your dictionary I will use mine but the Doctrine of the Church is free from error.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html

to much here to pick out many of the salient points but I will provide one small quote from the text, the third paragraph;

Quote:
 
Likewise, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, whose task it is to "preserve the doctrine of faith and morals in the whole Catholic world,"(2) intends to gather together and explain a number of truths concerning the mystery of the Church which at the present time are being either denied or endangered. In this it will follow above all the lines laid down by the two Vatican Councils.
Texts emboldened by penfold.
Of not it is the Sacred Congregation of for the Doctrine of the Faith, not dogma not teaching or any other word one might find in any dictionary, it is the Doctrine of the Church that is preserved by the Doctrine of Infallibility.

Quote:
 
Here is what Vatican I said on the matter:
"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that a doctrine on faith and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals. Therefore, these definitions of the Roman Pontiff are unreformable per se, and not because of the Church's consent" (DS 3074).

This doctrine was taken up again, confirmed and further explained by Vatican II, which states:
"And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (cf. Lk 22:32), by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but, as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith" (LG 25). http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html
again the text emboldened by penfold
As I say Gerry you use your dictionary I shall use mine but from what I can see mine is the same as the one being used by the Vatican.
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Gerard

Penfold
Tuesday, 2. October 2012, 17:41
Here is what Vatican I said on the matter:

Quote:
 
"When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in exercising his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians he defines with his supreme apostolic authority that and morals is to be held by the whole Church, through the divine assistance promised him in the person of St. Peter, he enjoys that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished to endow his Church in defining a doctrine on faith and morals.

Thanks Penfold,

I had not come across the actual wording before and am grateful for your provision of them. As a result of previous discussions I was even of the thought that the pronouncement did not use the phrase "ex-cathedra". Glad to see it did.

And so, when he speaks ex-cathedra, infallibility is claimed. Hence when he does not speak ex-cathedra he is not protected by the claim of infallibility. In other words if he speaks or teaches not ex-cathedra (which they all do extensively), he can make mistakes. He can be wrong.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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It is interesting that you only read what you want to see Gerry. The papal infalibility is not confined to his speaking ex cathedra.

It should be noted that the Second Vatican Council also calls attention to the Magisterium of the bishops in union with the Roman Pontiff, stressing that they too enjoy the Holy Spirit's assistance when they define a point of faith in conjunction with the Successor of Peter:

Quote:
 
This doctrine was taken up again, confirmed and further explained by Vatican II, which states:
"And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (cf. Lk 22:32), by a definitive act he proclaims a doctrine of faith or morals. And therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, since they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, promised to him in blessed Peter, and therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but, as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith" (LG 25). http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html


And to confirm this and what is of relevance to those who think that Vat II can be ignored because it certain documents were not actually declared ex cathedra they still in some cases enjoy infallibility because they are the product of a proclamation made by a definite act in an ecumenical council, hence my remark in the post in the SSPX thread that cautioned against relying on the doctrines of that or any other ecumenical council, not having been declared ex cathedra, being regarded as other than infallible.

Quote:
 
"The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme Magisterium with the Successor of Peter.... But when either the Roman Pontiff or the body of bishops together with him defines a judgment, they pronounce it in accordance with revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with, that is, the revelation which as written or orally handed down is transmitted in its entirety through the legitimate succession of bishops...which under the guiding light of the Spirit of truth is religiously preserved and faithfully expounded in the Church" (LG 25).

The Council also says:
"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the Successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held. This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith. And this infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining doctrine of faith and morals, extends as far as the deposit of revelation extends" (LG 25).


The Second Vatican Council issued 4 CONSTITUTIONS: Dogmatic DEI VERBUM; LUMEN GENTIUM and Pastoral SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM; GAUDIUM ET SPES
Edited by Penfold, Wednesday, 3. October 2012, 23:03.
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tomais

Anniversary of Vat 2 discussed on BBC World radio this morning!
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