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Papal Infallibility; and Infallibility of the Church
Topic Started: Monday, 21. January 2008, 23:07 (2,404 Views)
Rose of York
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The first dogma Holy Mother Church declared to be infallible was that of Papal Infallibility.

We all know of the misconception amongst protestants and atheists, that the Popes claim that every single thing they say is true, even if they say rain is not wet, or hot coals are cold, not hot. We Catholics can tell people, the Pope only claims infallibility when he speaks to the Church, in his capacity as Pope (Bishop of Rome) on matters of faith and morals.

I would dearly love to know why some doctrines are declared infallibly and many others are not. Is the teaching in every encyclical to be treated as infallible? A convert has to assent to the teachings in the Creed, none of them have been declared formally as infallible, though obviously I accept them to be true.

Quotation from another discussion:

John Sweeney
Jan 21 2008, 09:37 PM
I am sorry I embarrass you Joseph but there seems little point in a Catholic Forum, in my personal opinion, if all we do is trade pious certainties and use reams of intimidating rules from obscure Roman diktats to try to  crush any opinion that strays from the orthodox. That approach is for slaves, and Catholics have always aspired to something better than that.

Keep the Faith!

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Paduan
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm has some helpful explanation, albeit somewhat long-winded.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
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Rose of York
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Thanks Paduan. That document is the best I have come across for explaining all aspects of infallibility. It is indeed long, but well worth reading. I think we could end up with a really good discussion, based on the article (when we are all wide awake :D )
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

If the pope says he is infallible, and actually is infallible, then he is infallible.
If the pope says he is infallible and actually he is not infallible then he is not infallible and a later pope can say we made a mistake, popes are not infallible.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Annabelle

Gerard
Jan 22 2008, 09:20 AM
If the pope says he is infallible, and actually is infallible, then he is infallible.
If the pope says he is infallible and actually he is not infallible then he is not infallible and a later pope can say we made a mistake, popes are not infallible.

Gerry

And when has the Church ever admitted to getting anything wrong Gerard......???? :rolleyes:

That said, I thought yours was a masterly summary!
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Gerard

Annabell,

First a word of caution. The Pope and the Church does have teaching authority even when it is not infallible. It is obviously guided by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise how can one explain the survival of good teaching even during the reign of bad popes such as the Borgias?

The Church seems to find it very difficult to admit its mistakes and this is most unfortunate. I heard a commentator say recently that we lack the Jewish "day of atonement" when everyone admits thier sins including the leaders. But in recent years it has admitted mistakes. Pope John Paul The Great apologised for a variety of mistakes including historical attitudes to Jews, and other acts of violence. he also apologised for the mistakes of the Galileo affair. The Second Vatican Council also said this in the DECREE ON ECUMENISM - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO:

Quote:
 
But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.


Where it is clearly saying that both sides were to blame in the Reformation.

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Michaeljohn

Gerry, the Council of Trent was at least an implicit recognition that the Church was partly to blame for the Reformation. I read Chaucer at school and the good Brothers made no bones of the fact that the sale of indulgences was being heavily criticised 300 years before the Reformation. We didn't need to wait for the Decree on Ecumenism.
Pope John Paul II fell into the late 20th Century touchie-feelie trap of apologising for things that were not his fault, a lesson he seems to have learned from Tony Blair (or perhaps the other way round).
Applying 20-20 hindsight (a gift that most of us have) is not productive and traps you into situations you are better steering clear of.
"If we'd known then what we know now we would have done it differently" is fair enough but since we didn't and in many cases there is no way we could have then apologies are irrelevant.
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Gerard

Michaeljohn,

I am encourageed by your posting. I find too many catholics who think the Church is perfect and cannot make a mistake. It is so rare for it to say it made a mistake that we both struggle to find examples. You use an "implicit" example and I used an apology. I agree a simple statement along the lines of we wuz wrong would suffice.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Jan 22 2008, 11:17 AM
...But in recent years it has admitted mistakes. Pope John Paul The Great apologised for a variety of mistakes including...

Let's not forget this one:

Quote:
 
As I bring these considerations to an end, I would like to ask forgiveness-in my own name and in the name of all of you, venerable and dear brothers in the episcopate-for everything which, for whatever reason, through whatever human weakness, impatience or negligence, and also through the at times partial, one-sided and erroneous application of the directives of the Second Vatican Council, may have caused scandal and disturbance concerning the interpretation of the doctrine and the veneration due to this great sacrament. And I pray the Lord Jesus that in the future we may avoid in our manner of dealing with this sacred mystery anything which could weaken or disorient in any way the sense of reverence and love that exists in our faithful people.


Dominicae Cenae
S.A.G.

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Deleted User
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Gerry's explanation is brilliant .

Why was it considered necessary to proclaim the doctrine of infallibility? What purpose was served?


John
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Quicunque vult

It was the reaffirmation of papal authority already inherent in Our Lord's commission to St Peter, made explicitly in response to 19th Century liberal challenges to the authority of the Church. Generally speaking, dogmas only need to be defined when heresy arises. When everyone is agreed on the teaching of the Church, there is no need.

QV
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Michaeljohn

Quicunque vult
Jan 22 2008, 10:33 PM
It was the reaffirmation of papal authority already inherent in Our Lord's commission to St Peter, made explicitly in response to 19th Century liberal challenges to the authority of the Church.  Generally speaking, dogmas only need to be defined when heresy arises.  When everyone is agreed on the teaching of the Church, there is no need.

QV

And in spite of various usually fairly good-natured disagreements on what are mainly manifestations of church teaching rather than dogma we all seem to agree on what church teaching is.
And I suspect that when the situation gets serious enough, whether it be on various aspects of sexual mores or the sanctity of life or whatever then the Pope (this one, next one, one after) will take the appropriate steps.

19th century liberalism and its bastard offspring Modernism were a direct attack on fundamental Catholic beliefs. Married couples using artificial contraception are (as Don Camillo put it) like two cockroaches trying to bring down St Peter's by gnawing away at the columns. While they need good pastoral care they are no threat to the fundamental structure of the Church.

[My understanding, by the way, is that Humanae Vitae was not an infallible pronouncement and for several very practical reasons. If you read between the lines of what Paul VI actually said it becomes clearer that the use of chemical contraception was looked at as being of a different order from the use of the assorted "barrier" methods, hence the reason for the Commission in the first place. Those who were in favour of allowing it argued their case badly and Paul (rightly) kicked the matter into the long grass maintaining (as he was obliged to do) the status quo.]
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Deleted User
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It seems then from those explanations that the doctrine was proclaimed to try to quash dissent. Why couldn't the Church rely on the clarity of its arguments? And I thought Catholics in those days could be relied upon to follow Church teachings without this dictatorial approach? Were they "picking and mixing"?

I think sometimes we lack any ability to see how ridiculous this type of ruling must seem to those outside the Church. We may say we don't care about them but of course we not only should but we must.

In the 19th century, some Church teachings were attacked. We defended them. The argument went back and forward. And then we said "Aha. there can be no further argument because from now on in these circumstances the Pope is infallible ". Oh, that's all right then.

John

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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Jan 23 2008, 09:33 PM
In the 19th century, some Church teachings were attacked. We defended them. The argument went back and forward. And then we said "Aha. there can be no further argument because from now on in these circumstances the Pope is infallible ". Oh, that's all right then.

John

If I doubted something that I felt free to doubt or disbelieve (Limbo could be an example for some) and the Pope pronounced it as infallible teaching, that would make me sit up and think, and look into the reason for the teaching.
Keep the Faith!

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MickCook
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Papal infallibility refers to when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair) -- that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor. Infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act or teaching of the pope but only to his ex cathedra teaching.

Quote:
 
The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely in his private capacity as a theologian, preacher or allocutionist, nor in his capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal.

Then it is only when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of faith or morals that he is infallible (see below, IV).

Further it must be sufficiently evident that he intends to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense (see DEFINITION). These are well-recognized formulas by means of which the defining intention may be manifested.

Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. To demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. Theoretically, this intention might be made sufficiently clear in a papal decision which is addressed only to a particular Church; but in present day conditions, when it is so easy to communicate with the most distant parts of the earth and to secure a literally universal promulgation of papal acts, the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.

It should be observed in conclusion that papal infallibility is a personal and incommunicable charisma, which is not shared by any pontifical tribunal. It was promised directly to Peter, and to each of Peter's successors in the primacy, but not as a prerogative the exercise of which could be delegated to others. Hence doctrinal decisions or instructions issued by the Roman congregations, even when approved by the pope in the ordinary way, have no claim to be considered infallible. To be infallible they must be issued by the pope himself in his own name according to the conditions already mentioned as requisite for ex cathedra teaching.



Not quite as clear as mud, but the simple version is that the Pope rarely speaks ex cathedra (the last time was in 1950). This is down to Jesus saying to Peter, "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loose in heaven." (see personal charisma above).

:)
Mick
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