Derekap

Mar 21 2008, 08:45 PM

Clare wrote:

"I'm not the one who is offended by a word used in the Catholic liturgy for well over a millennium.

Whether the adjective perfidious has been used in prayer to describe the Jews for one year or a million years I still abhor its use.

Also:

"Not that there's anything wrong with the word "even" in the prayer"

I disagree with you and agree with Rose.

Derekap

Mar 22 2008, 12:35 PM

In general Jews may disagree with Christian Beliefs, which I can understand, but, Clare, is there any evidence that they clearly hate the Church?

Quote:

 

Around the world, millions of Catholics are celebrating Good Friday, when they commemorate the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. But for many Jews, this year's ceremonies leave a bitter aftertaste, due to a controversial new version of a prayer that many claim is anti-Semitic.
...
Several leading Jewish organizations, including the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and the International Jewish Committee on Inter-Religious Consultations, have strongly criticized the new wording of the prayer.

Quote:

 

...
No doubt, in short order, a multitude of Jewish leaders will express their own concerns over the pontiff’s lack of tolerance for those whose beliefs are different from his own. After all, a spirit of cooperation fostered by the Second Vatican Council back in 1965 has allowed people of diverse faiths to share their beliefs in mutual respect. Why, we’ve even witnessed the intriguing phenomenon of cardinals, in full “uniform,” visiting rabbinical students to observe the study of Talmud. How, many are asking, could the pope jeopardize this détente with his bigoted condemnation of non-Catholics?

I have one thing to say to the pope: “Hear! Hear!” What do his critics want from the man? He’s got a religion to run!

I, for one, am not at all put off by the fact that the leader of another religion sees that religion as primary. If he thinks his religion is right, he obviously thinks mine is wrong.
...

Derekap

Mar 22 2008, 03:36 PM

Is criticising the wording of a prayer a sign of hatred?

Derekap

Mar 22 2008, 05:08 PM

And what is "Everything Else"?

Clare

Mar 22 2008, 10:54 PM

The constant nagging, as though they should have any say over our liturgy.

KatyA

Mar 22 2008, 11:03 PM

Clare

Mar 22 2008, 10:54 PM

The constant nagging, as though they should have any say over our liturgy.

I actually agree with that comment. I don't go along to the mosque or synagogue and ask that certain prayers be changed or omitted. I pray for many people, some of whom would probably rather I didn't,or think I'm wasting my time, but it doesn't stop me praying for them.

Derekap

Mar 23 2008, 10:28 PM

Clare wrote:

"It's the whole mindset. If anything proves that the Jews (specifically the unfaithful ones, ie adherents of the religion!) have a certain blindness and a veil that needs removing from their hearts, it's their attitude towards the Church"

I think the same description could be given to all who are not Catholics, Christians or non-Christians.

Derekap

Mar 24 2008, 08:46 PM

I don't think Almighty God who loves all sinners, Catholic and non-Catholic will love the Jews any less than other non-Catholics. Are you sure, Clare, that had you been born a Jewess and brought-up in the Jewish Faith you would have converted to Christianity?

Romans 9

 

6 Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel: 7 Neither are all they that are the seed of Abraham, children; but in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 8 That is to say, not they that are the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they, that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: According to this time will I come; and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only she. But when Rebecca also had conceived at once, of Isaac our father.

6 "All are not Israelites"... Not all, who are the carnal seed of Israel, are true Israelites in God's account: who, as by his free grace, he heretofore preferred Isaac before Ismael, and Jacob before Esau, so he could, and did by the like free grace, election and mercy, raise up spiritual children by faith to Abraham and Israel, from among the Gentiles, and prefer them before the carnal Jews.

11 For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) 12 Not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy.