" Old Catholics"

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" Old Catholics"
Topic Started: Tuesday, 1. January 2008, 21:57 (182 Views)
Rose of York	Tuesday, 1. January 2008, 21:57 Post #1
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Do any of you know anything about the people who call themselves Old Catholics. This is a serious question, not a joke. I think they are a group of Catholics whose clergy are not in communion with Rome, but can trace their Orders back to a bishop who was properly appointed by a Pope, and them broke from Rome some time during the Reformation. Any information would be appreciated.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Quicunque vult	Tuesday, 1. January 2008, 22:20 Post #2
Posts: 484 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: May 18, 2007	Rose My recollection is that they were a group of Catholics, mainly in the Netherlands, who did not accept the doctrine of Papal Infallibility as pronounced at Vatican I. In all other respects, they adhered to the Catholic faith, but ingratiated themselves with High Anglicans, especially as they were able to lend their (still valid) orders to help Anglicans get round the declaration by Pope Leo XIII that Anglican orders are "aboslutely null and utterly void". My recollection is that in the early 1970s they were involved in some very serious child abuse scandals, from which they have never recovered. QV



Lilo	Wednesday, 2. January 2008, 00:08 Post #3
Posts: 743 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: December 3, 2007	Rose of York Jan 1 2008, 02:57 PM Do any of you know anything about the people who call themselves Old Catholics. It's a valid question, Rose. Having had to research this in the past, I can tell you that the answer is not as simple as you might want. Like every group that breaks away from the Church, there is the tendency to then break away from each other . . . and that has happened with the Old Catholics. The following websites will give some idea of the diversity found under that name: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11235b.htm Old Catholics The sect organised in German-speaking countries to combat the dogma of Papal Infallibility. . . . http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch05841 Welcome to OLD CATHOLIC CHURCH OF CANADA Presiding Bishop Most Rev. Patricia Davies http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.a...1&number=472972 The term Old Catholics can be used for various national churches that broke away from the Church in several historical periods. The earliest was the so-called Church of Utrecht, which had been formed in 1724 by the separation from Rome of three bishops over the Jansenist controversy. Another branch, arguably the best known, was the Old Catholic Church established by a group of onetime Catholics who refused to acknowledge the infallibility of the pope as defined by the First Vatican Council in 1870. . . . http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=21397 . . . The men the archbishop ordained, all of whom already claimed to have been ordained bishops in the Old Catholic Church, were leading figures the previous week in a "Married Priests Now!" convocation held by Archbishop Milingo in Saddle Brook, N.J. Archbishop Milingo had told convocation participants that he was under Vatican orders to stop his campaign for married priests or face suspension from ministry. A news release from Archbishop Milingo's group claimed the new ordinations would make the Old Catholic bishops "bishops of the Roman Catholic Church." . . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Among just these, you'll probably find some that have valid sacraments and some not. Archbishop Milingo's involvement is a new wrinkle; it seems there's no limit to the damage that man can do. The following list may be useful, too. I think I'll be keeping it. http://www.archdiocesesantafe.org/Offices/.../ChurchList.pdf Church List: Who’s Who? Scroll down to Churches that call themselves “Catholic” but not in union with Rome
	The root problem in a lot of bad catechesis is ultimately not ignorance, but pride. ~ Mark Shea


KatyA	Wednesday, 2. January 2008, 00:12 Post #4
Administrator Posts: 5,417 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	This may help also Old Catholic Info Centre KatyA



frugal dougal	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 01:52 Post #5
Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #85 Joined: May 10, 2007	Lilo Jan 2 2008, 12:08 AM http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch05841 Welcome to OLD CATHOLIC CHURCH OF CANADA Presiding Bishop Most Rev. Patricia Davies If a Church with valid orders has a presiding Bishop called Patricia, I'm interested. I'd also be interested to find out if the split was because of the tradition that when the First Vatican Council was broken up by the Franco-Prussian war in 1870, it had unfinished business, that business being to set up the College of Bishops to balance infallibility.
Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #85 Joined: May 10, 2007	Love is as strong as Death tales from a draughty old fen


Quicunque vult	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 09:00 Post #6
Posts: 484 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: May 18, 2007	frugal dougal There was unfinished business, but it was resolved at Vatican II. Lumen Gentium settled the relationship between the Pope and the Bishops. Here is part of what it had to say: Quote: But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28) This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29*) This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act. To summarise: Vatican II reaffirmed the teaching on Papal infallibility. It also declared that the college of Bishops could exercise supreme authority, but never without the Pope, while the Pope could act on his own without the Bishops. QV



Gerard	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 09:09 Post #7
Posts: 3,125 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Clare What say you? Did V2 finish some business of V1? Some say V2 was only pastoral. Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Clare	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 10:11 Post #8
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman Posts: 3,093 Group: Members Member #70 Joined: March 27, 2007	Gerard Jan 3 2008, 09:09 AM Clare What say you? Did V2 finish some business of V1? Some say V2 was only pastoral. V2 has its own unfinished business. Pope Paul VI himself said, "In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statement of dogmas that would be endowed with the note of infallibility."
	S.A.G. My attempt at a blog.


Gerard	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 11:00 Post #9
Posts: 3,125 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Clare Was that a yes or a no? Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Clare	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 13:44 Post #10
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman Posts: 3,093 Group: Members Member #70 Joined: March 27, 2007	Gerard Jan 3 2008, 11:00 AM Clare Was that a yes or a no? Gerry It was an "I don't think so!"
	S.A.G. My attempt at a blog.


Gerard	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 14:55 Post #11
Posts: 3,125 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Thanks for the clarification. Of course I coulldnt agree though. Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Derekap	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 20:52 Post #12
Posts: 3,415 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	From what I have read on here Old Catholics seem to be an older version of SSPX. In the 1950's I came across a small Old Catholic somewhere in Switzerland. There was nothing obvious to distinguish it from a true Catholic Church. However, despite this there was an ambiance of very untidy neglect and disinterest. It very much needed a good springclean and tidying.
	Derekap


Quicunque vult	Thursday, 3. January 2008, 21:45 Post #13
Posts: 484 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: May 18, 2007	Derekap wrote: Quote: From what I have read on here Old Catholics seem to be an older version of SSPX. No - the Old Catholics are heretical as they do not accept the dogmatic teaching of the First Vatican Council. The SSPX are not heretical - they have misgivings about certain aspects of the Second Vatican Council, but this was openly acknowledged as being a purely pastoral Council - no new dogmas were proclaimed. Indeed, I believe the thinking of the Church now is that the SSPX are not even in schism - they are merely irregular - is that the right word ? I may have the terminology wrong, forgive me if so. QV



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