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Passing On Your Faith; to your own children
Topic Started: Tuesday, 13. November 2007, 01:40 (1,458 Views)
Mairtin
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Alpac
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 16:43
In short what I am saying is what we pass on to our children has to be more than we have been given, it needs to have been enriched by our experience for faith is a testament to a living relationship with God not a testament to a bygone age, beautiful though it was in its day.
Very well put, Alpac, and that, in my opinion, has been the single biggest failure in our Church in recent years. People today - especially young people - are not prepared to accept things because they have always been a certain way, they have to be presented with a rich, vibrant message that stands up on its own terms.

The message of Christ is all of those things today just as it has been in all times, the failure is not in the message, it is in our presentation of the message; recognising that would be a good start on the road to winning the battle against secularism.
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 20:15
Very well put, Alpac, and that, in my opinion, has been the single biggest failure in our Church in recent years. People today - especially young people - are not prepared to accept things because they have always been a certain way, they have to be presented with a rich, vibrant message that stands up on its own terms.
They ask questions and want answers that make sense to them. It is not enough to say "it is true because the Church says so." Children, young people, converts and the other people who ask us questions need an explanation of the reason why the Catholic Church, unlike human-founded denominations, claims to have authority, directly from God, to teach.

"The Church says so because it is true", makes more sense than "it is true because the Church (or Saint Somebody or a document) says so."
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Mairtin
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 20:06
Patrick
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 13:26
Mairtin
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 06:36
Patrick
Tuesday, 12. October 2010, 08:34
Tradidi quod et accepi
So we can blame it all on our parents, Patrick. That's handy.
Ok. What's your point, where are you coming from, and.... where's this leading to? More of the usual snidey stuff that you tend to sling mine and Clare's way? If it is, then I'm not interested.
Simply pointing out the meaningless of your Latin soundbite.
I don't see passing on the Faith that I have received from my parents to my children as "meaningless". At least it's Catholic.
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KatyA

I wouldn't agree that it is a meaningless Latin soundbite - it's a quotation from St Paul
Quote:
 
1 2 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
2
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3
3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8
Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
usccb
The USCCB footnote on verse 3 says "3 [3-7] The language by which Paul expresses the essence of the "gospel" (1 Cor 15:1) is not his own but is drawn from older credal formulas. This credo highlights Jesus' death for our sins (confirmed by his burial) and Jesus' resurrection (confirmed by his appearances) and presents both of them as fulfillment of prophecy. In accordance with the scriptures: conformity of Jesus' passion with the scriptures is asserted in Matthew 16:1; Luke 24:25-27, 32, 44-46. Application of some Old Testament texts (Psalm 2:7; 16:8-11) to his resurrection is illustrated by Acts 2:27-31; 13:29-39; and Isaiah 52:13-53:12 and Hosea 6:2 may also have been envisaged."
"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received" appears to me to be entirely relevant to this discussion - whether it's in Latin or not.

KatyA
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OsullivanB

All of which raises a question which interests me. Why quote St Paul in Latin? The original text we have is in Greek. Why use a translation into a language that few here (perhaps not even the poster) understand instead of a translation into English, which is the customary means of communication on this forum?

I think Mairtin had a point in describing the quote as meaningless. It conveys no meaning at all to anyone who cannot read Latin. So it is as meaningless to most forumites as it would be if I had posted in the the pinyin transcription of a Mandarin Chinese translation.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

1 Corinthians 12:3

Wo dangri suo lingshou you chuan gei nimen de diyi...

Get it?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Thursday, 14. October 2010, 00:53
All of which raises a question which interests me. Why quote St Paul in Latin? The original text we have is in Greek. Why use a translation into a language that few here (perhaps not even the poster) understand instead of a translation into English, which is the customary means of communication on this forum?

I think Mairtin had a point in describing the quote as meaningless. It conveys no meaning at all to anyone who cannot read Latin. So it is as meaningless to most forumites as it would be if I had posted in the the pinyin transcription of a Mandarin Chinese translation.
I was accustomed, for over 20 years, to attending Mass in Latin. That does not mean I understand the Latin language, I do not. When I see posts or just quotes, in Latin without the English provided, I ignore them.

The Faith, i.e. the teachings of the Church were passed on to me in English, the only language in which I am fluent.
Keep the Faith!

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Anne-Marie

KatyA
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 23:43
it's a quotation from St Paul
Quote:
 
1 2 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
2
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3
3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
usccb
The USCCB footnote on verse 3 says "3 [3-7] The language by which Paul expresses the essence of the "gospel" (1 Cor 15:1) is not his own but is drawn from older credal formulas.
KatyA
And that, Katy is a very good reason why our young people turn their backs on the Church.
Read St.Paul's list carefully - or even quite casually (it makes no difference):
WHERE ARE THE WOMEN IN ALL THIS???
And how come not everyone whose writings are in the Bible happens to agree about writing out the place of women???
SO: To whom did the risen Christ choose to appear first?

In an instant, Katy has reminded me why so many Catholics, both here and elsewhere, refuse to accept the Church's banishment of women from the priesthood.
Is it Jesus we follow... or someone else???

And that, folks, is a very good reason young people - who have so much more energy to show us how silly we are - walk away when they feel, and see, we are twisting reality and appearing (to put it gently) to be making it up as we go along.
Young people want explanations and justifications, not re-writing of the truth.
The Truth they'll have no trouble accepting!
But if there's a single hole or fault in your argument... you can guarantee they'll find it.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Mairtin
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Patrick
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 21:36
I don't see passing on the Faith that I have received from my parents to my children as "meaningless".
I wasn't saying that, Patrick - and you know rightly that I wasn't saying that.
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Alpac

Poor old St Paul he is often pilloried for his views on women but perhaps these two articles will help:

http://www.womenpriests.org/classic/mckenzie.asp

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/03/St-Paul-Friend-Or-Enemy-Of-Women.aspx?p=2


(I accept this deviates slighly from the main topic so I am opening a thread on St Paul and the role of women, if one already exists or if there is another thread into which the topic could be easily imported then I would be in no way offended if someone in the Admin migrated my new thread and apologise for the work this will generate.)
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Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Thursday, 14. October 2010, 00:53
I think Mairtin had a point in describing the quote as meaningless. It conveys no meaning at all to anyone who cannot read Latin.
My point went a bit deeper than that, OsB. The phrase on its own means nothing. Patrick used it it the context of us passing our Faith onto our children; the only possible relevance that I can see is the implication that the problem is not so much with the recipients, it is to do with the quality of Faith among those who are doing the passing on.

If that is the case, however, then there is equally an implication that there was something lacking in the way our parents passed the Faith onto [/i]us. And also with the Faith their parents passed onto them and so on - if people will forgive the introduction of another Latin phrase - ad infinitum.

That is why the phrase is a meaningless soundbite even in Latin in an attempt to make it sound more profound.
Edited by Mairtin, Thursday, 14. October 2010, 08:31.
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Mairtin
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KatyA
Wednesday, 13. October 2010, 23:43
I wouldn't agree that it is a meaningless Latin soundbite - it's a quotation from St Paul
Quote:
 
...

3
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
5
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8
Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
Extracting half a verse from a sequence of 6 verses that are in effect a single statement is entirely meaningless.
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Peter

Back in the 80's my wife and I went round to her then boss's house for a meal. During the course of the evening, he and his wife told us that they had "found God" and had been "born again." They went on to talk about their local C of E church and how they and a group of other recently arrived parishoners had transformed the ethos and worship there, but in the process had alienated the people that had been there for years. Although they said they felt some regret about the situation they, nevertheless, felt it their duty to continue with the new rigorous ways to effect change, no matter how much hurt was heaped on others.

Some of the postings on here remind me of that situation. I'm sure no one on this forum intends to be unkind or rude to each other, but an email, quickly despatched, CAN and DOES have that effect. Why can't we accept that we are all Catholics and we all have our own different ways of coming to Our Lord and Creator. Do we have to continually drive home our point at the expense of someones elses feelings?

I love gregorian chant - I don't understand it, have never wanted to, but it makes me feel closer to God. I also like some of the worship music because sometimes my mood is such that THAT brings me closer to God.

I'm not a latin person and if I see any quotes in latin on this forum, or indeed, anywhere else, I can't be bothered to translate them - they're not important to me but they ARE important to the person that has written them and what's wrong with that?

A few years ago, when he was a pop idol, Boy George was quoted as saying after a recent trip to a church that bored him silly, " The Church badly needs a facelift because it's God's Theatre on earth and he should be packing them in."

Boy George's conclusion is eye opening isn't it!

By all means debate, that's what the forum is for, but be understanding and kind to each other too.

If a stranger looked at some of these postings what would he or she think?


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Gerard

Peter,

In my view this intolerance of each other is ingrained in the authoritarian culture of the Catholic Church. Elsewhere I called it tryrany (which seemed to end that thread as well). When the English Mass was introduced in the late 1960s the Latin Mass was forbidden. This was (and is) the modus operandi (normal way of acting for those who need a translation :wh: ) of the Catholic Church. The Latinists have been fighting to gain control ever since. Now we are about to have a new translation and the church is acting in its usual manner and forbidding the current English translation. So we will have another group complaining bitterly and fighting for control.

If we were really catholic we could all relax and seek out whatever Mass or culture we wanted and we would not feel threatened by other cultures within the Catholic Church.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 14. October 2010, 09:50.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Peter

Gerry, presumably you must believe what you have put in your post but I honestly don't think you've understood a word of my own. You just don't appear to "get it."

Are you not also being just a tiny bit mischevious too, I wonder, with your translation of Modus Operandi for those of us who don't follow latin?! You must know as well as I do that it's one of the few latin terms that is commonly used in everyday usage, usually in connect with criminal law.

I must dash now, I'm about to find the nearest wall so I can bang my head (therapeutically) against it in order to eradicate my current trauma brought about by some of the postings on this particular thread!
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