John Sweeney

Friday, 1. May 2009, 22:11

Surely Baptism is a powerful sign for us humans rather than a passport to heaven. The symbolism is powerful and affecting , the ritual is important but above all it is an earthly sign of welcoming and reception and part of the rite of passage. It makes absolutely no difference to God's view of us.

Rose of York

Friday, 1. May 2009, 22:50

Penfold are you able to tell us the reason why it was decreed that the baptismal words must be said at the same time as the water is poured, that it is sufficient to wet the head but not immerse the person, the water must not be dabbed on, and so on?

My father baptised his second child, in emergency. I am confident he would know exactly what to do. Some people, not knowing, might say "I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" THEN pour the water. Some might just say "I baptise you." To my limited understanding it seems unfair that a child's soul should still be stained by original sin due to a person's lack of knowledge, but I acknowledge that those who made the decision had their reasons.

Quote:

 

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.
1240 In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister's words: "N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: "The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest immerses the candidate in the water and raises him up again.

Quote:

 

Mt 28:18-20
18 Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.'

OsullivanB

Friday, 1. May 2009, 22:05

Maybe also a different definition of Christian.

Penfold

Saturday, 2. May 2009, 00:53

It is late and l that this matter be laid to rest for as I have already said I think there is nothing to gain from pursuing the matter further in this forum.

Quote:

 

Questionable Baptism
 
Q: I recently witnessed a baptism, and I am not certain if it was valid.

During the baptism, the deacon grabbed the baby's father's hand and, while the deacon recited the baptismal formula ("Name, I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"), he and the father both poured the water over the baby's head three times.

I am the godmother of this child. I became concerned about the baptism before it took place, because when I and the parents participated in the preparation class, the deacon told us that in order to get other people involved in the baptism, he would have their baby's grandfather pour the water while he (the deacon)
recited the baptismal formula.

I was afraid that this change to the form of the sacrament might invalidate the baptism, so a couple of weeks before the baptism I asked the mother of the child to talk to the deacon and request that he himself pour the water and recite the words. The mother talked to the deacon a few days before the baptism, and the deacon insisted that it is OK for someone else to pour the water while he said the baptismal formula.

The mother told me about this conversation on the day of the baptism. I, in turn, insisted that the deacon be the one to pour the water and recite the formula. In the end, as a kind of compromise, the deacon grabbed the child's father's hand and they poured the water together, while the deacon said the baptismal formula.

I am wondering if the baptism of this child was valid since the form was changed. As the godmother, I feel like it is my obligation to ensure that this child was validly baptized.

Also, would a baptism be valid if, in ordinary circumstances, a deacon/priest recited the formula while someone else pours the water, or vice versa?

Along the same lines, can a person who has no arms or is unable to speak baptise a child?

It seems to me that, in order for a baptism to be valid, the person administering the baptism must both pour the water three times and recite the valid baptismal formula.

-- E.R., San Clemente, California