Rose of York

Sep 13 2007, 12:39 PM

If we want to get people back we must identify and cure the cause of their departure.

Rose of York

Sep 13 2007, 12:39 PM

If we want to get people back we must identify and cure the cause of their departure.

Rose of York

Sep 13 2007, 01:39 PM

If we want to get people back we must identify and cure the cause of their departure.

Gerard

Sep 13 2007, 04:50 PM

Well,

I think they (the dormant catholics in the UK) have been successfully evangelised by the world. I bet you could plot a graph of increasing wealth against decreasing participation and find a close correlation.

If you know your OT you will see it played out repeatedly there for our education and warning. As wealth and comfort increase so peoples reliance on themselves rather than God increases up to the point where God is squezed out entirely. The Temple was left desolate and filled with idols several times in OT history. God does not leave the nation like that. He brings them back to their senses via disasters. He might do that to us. Its actually better for us in the long term.

Is there an alternative ? Yes, see the thread on Acts just now (13/09/07) the answer is there. We need to give up our money. Use it to build up the church and the community. Give it to people who need it in this country and others. You dont see how that can work? Read the Gospel. Jesus had a lot to say about money - and it wasnt complimentary.

Colin2000

Sep 13 2007, 02:12 PM

As one in 'ignorance is bliss' here I feel I can start the ball rolling as someone without an axe to grind I hope!

"I didn't mention Protestant once now did I!"

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness or something like that,

Colin.

Quote:

 

What's the Church for? To continue Christ's mission on earth, the mission of his Incarnation. The mission
of love. We're here to proclaim God's love and the good news of Jesus Christ to the ends of the
earth. We're here to make disciples of all nations.
In all this, we have Christ's promise that he will be with us until the end of the age. And he is. Through
the Holy Spirit that guards the truth of what the Church teaches. Through the Eucharist and sacraments
that sustain and sanctify us on our journey in this world.
A lot of people don't "get" these connections between the divine and the human, the invisible and the
visible, the spiritual and the material. And that leads to a lot of problems. We hear people all the time
saying they're upset with "the Church." Or that "the Church" has let them down. Or that "the Church"
has distorted Christ's message and needs to be reformed.
I agree with these people. I'm not satisfied with the Church either. I want the Church to be more holy.
I want the Church to purge all the corrupting influences of sin, temptation, and worldliness. I want to
the Church to be fearless in love, courageous in confronting evil, and eloquent in bearing witness to the
Gospel in a culture of greed and despair.
But what those people are really complaining about is the clergy. Their definition of "the Church"
includes only the visible leadership of the Church; the pope, the cardinals, the archbishops and bishops,
the priests. That's the Church they want to criticize, shake up and turn around.
I'm glad they hold bishops and priests, including me, to high standards. We should be leading holy lives
that are an example for the Church. I only wish these people would remember that the Church includes
them, too. When Christ said, "Be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect," he wasn't talking only
about the clergy. When he said, "Go and preach the Gospel to all nations," he wasn't talking only about
religious professionals. The demands of holiness and radical discipleship apply to every one of us. No
excuses. No exceptions.
One of my inspirations was the French Catholic writer, Georges Bernanos. He's most famous for a great
novel that I strongly recommend to you, The Diary of a Country Priest.
Bernanos was a true prophet of the last century. One of the many things he got right was his thinking
about the Church and what it means to be Catholic. He knew the Church in this world was never meant
to be a society of the perfect.
He wrote: "The visible Church is not only the ecclesiastical hierarchy. She is you, she is me -- which
means the Church is not always a pleasant thing. At times it's even been a very unpleasant thing to
have to look at the Church up close."

Quote:

 

I want to briefly sketch for you the picture of an anonymous culture. But everything I'm about to tell
you comes from the factual record.
This society is advanced in the sciences and the arts. It has a complex economy and a strong military.
It includes many different religions, although religion tends to be a private affair or a matter of civic
ceremony.
This particular society also has big problems. Among them is that fertility rates remain below replacement
levels. There aren't enough children being born to replace the current adult population and to do
the work needed to keep society going. The government offers incentives to encourage people to have
more babies. But nothing seems to work.
Promiscuity is common and accepted. So are bisexuality, and hom osex uality. So is prostitution. Birth
control and abortion are legal, widely practiced, and justified by society's leading intellectuals.
Every now and then, a lawmaker introduces a measure to promote marriage, arguing that the health
and future of society depend on stable families. These measures typically go nowhere.
Ok. What society am I talking about? My own country, of course, would broadly fit this description.
Yours would, too. But I'm not talking about us.
I've just outlined the conditions of the Mediterranean world at the time of Christ. We tend to idealize
the ancients, to look back at Greece and Rome as an age of extraordinary achievements. And of course,
it was. But it had another side as well.
We don't usually think of Plato and Aristotle endorsing abortion or infanticide as state policy. But they
did. Hippocrates, the great medical pioneer, also famously created an abortion kit that involved sharp
blades for cutting up the fetus and a hook for ripping it from the womb. We rarely connect that with
his Hippocratic Oath. But some years ago, archeologists discovered the remains of what appeared to
be a Roman-era abortion or infanticide "clinic." It was a sewer filled with the bones of more than 100
infants.
If you want some useful winter reading, pick up a little book written about 10 years ago, The Rise of
Christianity by Rodney Stark. You'll find all of this history and more.

Quote:

 

Shouldn't we be taking money off people if it's causing them to abandon the faith?

Gerard

Sep 13 2007, 06:38 PM

Clare,

Quote:

 

Shouldn't we be taking money off people if it's causing them to abandon the faith?

Does that reveal a certain mindset ?

KatyA

Sep 13 2007, 05:24 PM

During a visit to Australia in July,Franciscan Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver gave two speeches which relate to evangelisation, one to the general public Renewing the Church, converting the world
Whilst not directly relating to dormant Catholics, he makes these comments:

Quote:

 

We hear people all the time saying they're upset with "the Church." Or that "the Church" has let them down. Or that "the Church" has distorted Christ's message and needs to be reformed.I agree with these people. I'm not satisfied with the Church either. I want the Church to be more holy.  I want the Church to purge all the corrupting influences of sin, temptation, and worldliness. I want to the Church to be fearless in love, courageous in confronting evil, and eloquent in bearing witness to the Gospel in a culture of greed and despair.

But what those people are really complaining about is the clergy. Their definition of "the Church" includes only the visible leadership of the Church; the pope, the cardinals, the archbishops and bishops, the priests. That's the Church they want to criticize, shake up and turn around.

I'm glad they hold bishops and priests, including me, to high standards. We should be leading holy lives that are an example for the Church. I only wish these people would remember that the Church includes them, too. When Christ said, "Be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect," he wasn't talking only
about the clergy. When he said, "Go and preach the Gospel to all nations," he wasn't talking only about religious professionals. The demands of holiness and radical discipleship apply to every one of us. No excuses. No exceptions.

Again, a brilliant speech and quite relevant to this discussion.

KatyA

Rose of York

Sep 13 2007, 04:03 PM

Colin2000

Sep 13 2007, 02:12 PM

As one in 'ignorance is bliss' here I feel I can start the ball rolling as someone without an axe to grind I hope!

"I didn't mention Protestant once now did I!"

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness or something like that,

Colin.

Colin, we all know you are Anglo Catholic. No problem.

If you want to get that ball rolling, go ahead. Roll it!

You might well have some insight into the problem of why people have left, and suggestions as to how we can encourage their return, then keep them once they have come back.