Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Dutch Dominicans Call For Laity To Say Mass
Topic Started: Monday, 10. September 2007, 12:51 (593 Views)
Deleted User
Deleted User

here's a link the the blog mentioned by Shell
What Does the Prayer Really Say
I particularly liked this bit ( Fr.Z's comments in italics)
Quote:
 
In a booklet posted to all 1,300 parishes in the country, it says that the Church should drop its priest-centred model of the Mass in favour of one built around a community sharing bread and wine in prayer.  [In other words become Protestants.]

"Whether they are women or men, homo- or heterosexual, married or single, makes no difference. What is important is an infectious attitude of faith," said the brochure, which has been approved by the Dutch order’s leaders. However, the Dutch bishops’ conference promptly said that the booklet appeared to be "in conflict with the faith of the Roman Catholic Church". It said it had no prior knowledge of the project and needed to study the text further before issuing a full reaction.  [And to gather the stake, wood and oil.]


Heretical Dominicans - now is that a paradox, oxymoron - or just plain moronic.

KatyA
Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Deacon Robert
Sep 10 2007, 10:11 PM
Is the hierarchy so desparate that they are willing to let anyone become a Priest?

Twenty years ago, when we were first warned of the impending shortage of priests, I met a young man, a convert, who had been accepted as a seminarian on the first possible date. He told me he was astounded at the ease with which he was accepted, and that the general opinion amongst students and seminary staff was that so long as a man was a Catholic the bishops would snap his hands off. Any man would do.

So, what is the result? Lower standards, with a loss of the esteem in which priests were traditionally held. A priest who is a good role model has a chance of sewing the seed of a vocation in young boys and men. A priest who is not totally dedicated, or who is obviously unhappy in the priesthood, will lose parishioners and attract few if any to the priesthood.

The more the laity assume (often unlawfully) authority, the more the special nature of the ordained priesthood is diminished.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Enough is enough!

The distinction between the clergy and laity is becoming increasingly blurred.

At least four bishops banned Services of Word and Holy Communion, in churches that have weekly Vigil or Sunday Mass. The cry went up "People are doing no harm, by praying" as if the Mass is no different from a prayer group meeting.

Our bishop in encouraging his priests to revive the traditional devotions. I heard one Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion say to another "Have you heard we Special Ministers will be leading devotion soon? I must organise a rota so we can do something every evening." I commented the bishop had said devotions could be lay led, he had not specified any particular laity, and it was not necessary to be an EMHC to lead people in saying the Rosary or praying the Stations. I got a dirty look. :D
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
maklavan

"The distinction between the clergy and laity is becoming increasingly blurred."

The distinction is only blurred if people are poorly educated in Church matters. I doubt if most people have a problem in distinguishing a clergyman from a layman. A priest is Ordained into a Sacramental ministry. He is anointed. His unique roles are sacramental, namely Celebrating the Eucharist, hearing Reconciliation, Anointing the sick Confirmation and, if a bishop, bestowing Holy Orders. These areas are clearly defined. Neither Deacons or lay persons can ever perform them So where is there any blurring possible?
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
maklavan
Sep 11 2007, 12:59 PM
These areas are clearly defined. Neither Deacons or lay persons can ever perform them So where is there any blurring possible?

1 In the minds of those who are suited by imagined blurring.

2 Dutch Dominicans.

:D
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Sep 10 2007, 08:02 PM
John Sweeney
Sep 10 2007, 07:49 PM
Yes, it's a step too far for me too.

If its a step too far for John it is too far. ;)

:D
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

Briefly

When I read the item I was very puzzled and gob-smacked.

In case anyone might suspect I approve - I certainly disapprove.


Derekap
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Rose and Claire

I shall get my own back, never fear!

john
Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
John Sweeney
Sep 11 2007, 08:27 PM
Rose and Claire

I shall get my own back, never fear!

john

As you wish, John, but don't you dare play at being a priest in MY parish.

:rofl:
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Rose

There is an assumption in your post that I am not already in Holy Orders.

Regards

John
Goto Top
 
Colin2000

John Sweeney
Sep 12 2007, 08:04 AM
Rose

There is an assumption in your post that I am not already in Holy Orders.

Regards

John

Holy Orders John,

Now if you were in my lot it would be,

"You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so and anything you do say will be taken down in evidence and prayed over!"

Yours in His Name,

Colin.
JESUS IS LORD


Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
This is getting like Fawlty Towers.

The Tablet has another article this week.

LINK to Tablet Article 22 September 2007

Quote:
 
It is against this background that the 2005 Provincial Chapter of the Dutch Dominicans decided to try to clarify the relationship between Church and ministry. This was done in the form of a booklet, Kerk en Ambt ("Church and Ministry"), sent to all parishes at the end of August, which sought to shed light on various aspects of this relationship, including the ministry of those who preside at liturgical functions. Not least it proposed that in the absence of ordained priests, laypersons - men and women - should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist. The booklet is not intended to be a dogmatic declaration, but rather an attempt in clear and simple language to renew a discussion on the subject. It does not claim to say anything new: it is based on statements of the Second Vatican Council and on publications of professional theologians and pastoral experts.


All I can say is if they are so desperate for priests, surely the Dominican provincial in Holland could ask for unmarried men to come forward and offer their services as part time clergy. Train them to offer Mass. Ordain them.

There is no shortage of laity who have delusions of grandeur and would postively enjoy playing at offering Mass, to enhance their positions.

I am about to have a bad dream, about that woman who runs around our church checking we are all sitting the right way round, and forcing every booklet and circular letter into our hands, setting up house in the confessional.

Quote:
 
The booklet is not intended to be a dogmatic declaration, but rather an attempt in clear and simple language to renew a discussion on the subject. It does not claim to say anything new: it is based on statements of the Second Vatican Council.


Rubbish! The Second Vatican Council documents encourage active lay participation. At our local Health Centre there is patient participation. A group of patients give feedback to the practise, they arrange for volunteer drivers. They don't pretend to be doctors.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
PJD


Oh how careful we have to be nowadays when reading extracts e.g.

laypersons - men and women - should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist

Doesn't say lay should consecrate does it?

PJD
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
PJD
Sep 22 2007, 01:13 PM
Oh how careful we have to be nowadays when reading extracts e.g.

laypersons - men and women - should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist

Doesn't say lay should consecrate does it?

PJD

Tablet Article, 8 September

Quote:
 
he booklet says that many Dutch Catholics are frustrated that combining parishes and closing churches is the main response to the challenge of a dwindling clergy. "The Church is organised around priests and actually finds the priesthood more important than local faith communities," said Fr Salemans in an interview posted on the order's Dutch website. "This is deadly for local congregations."

Using the early Church as its model, the booklet said a congregation could choose its own lay minister to lead services. The minister and the congregation would speak the words of consecration together. "Speaking these words is not the exclusive right or power of the priest," the booklet said. "It is the conscious expression of faith by the whole congregation."


The day that happens in my local church, will be the last they see of me.

As for using the early Church as its model, Christ spoke the words of consecration at the Last Supper. Christ and Christ alone, not Christ and the apostles speaking the words together.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
paul

I wonder what Christ would say to these mutterings. Are we talking trivia?
Jesus would never castigate anyone who proclaimed the truth, only encourage and bless them. Think about it, get back to basics please.

paul.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Locked Topic