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Dutch Dominicans Call For Laity To Say Mass
Topic Started: Monday, 10. September 2007, 12:51 (590 Views)
Rose of York
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Quote:
 
  Dutch Dominicans call for laity to celebrate Mass

William Jurgensen

THE DOMINICAN Order in the Netherlands has issued a radical recommendation that lay ministers chosen by their congregations should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist if no ordained priests are available.

In a booklet posted to all 1,300 parishes in the country, it says that the Church should drop its priest-centred model of the Mass in favour of one built around a community sharing bread and wine in prayer.


To read the full article, please click the link


The Tablet
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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The booklet published by the Dutch Dominicans says a congregation could choose its own lay minister to lead services, at which congregation and minister would speak the words of consecration together. The booklet claims those words are not the exclusive right or power of the priest.

If that is their attitude why did they bother getting ordained?

The Dutch bishops are not very happy. I can't blame them.
Keep the Faith!

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Shell

I was quite struck by the sheer ignorance of these particular Dominicans. They have no understanding of the nature of the priesthood, nor do they seem to know much history.
Who has been in charge of their formation?

While this was yet another example of the shepherds being wolves which is beginning to make me less sad and more angry-I was pleased at the number of Dutch respondants on Fr Z's blog (What Does the Prayer Really Say?) who are orthodox even in the dreadful circumstances of the Church in their country.
Gives me hope.

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saundthorp

Rose of York
Sep 10 2007, 11:51 AM
Quote:
 
  Dutch Dominicans call for laity to celebrate Mass

William Jurgensen

THE DOMINICAN Order in the Netherlands has issued a radical recommendation that lay ministers chosen by their congregations should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist if no ordained priests are available.

In a booklet posted to all 1,300 parishes in the country, it says that the Church should drop its priest-centred model of the Mass in favour of one built around a community sharing bread and wine in prayer.


To read the full article, please click the link


The Tablet

I don't know why these Dominicans want to turn their Church into a Protestant one when there are so many around them to choose from.

And the article is in The Tablet, well fancy that :wh:
Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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Colin2000

saundthorp
Sep 10 2007, 03:35 PM
Rose of York
Sep 10 2007, 11:51 AM
Quote:
 
  Dutch Dominicans call for laity to celebrate Mass

William Jurgensen

THE DOMINICAN Order in the Netherlands has issued a radical recommendation that lay ministers chosen by their congregations should be allowed to celebrate the Eucharist if no ordained priests are available.

In a booklet posted to all 1,300 parishes in the country, it says that the Church should drop its priest-centred model of the Mass in favour of one built around a community sharing bread and wine in prayer.


To read the full article, please click the link


The Tablet

I don't know why these Dominicans want to turn their Church into a Protestant one when there are so many around them to choose from.

And the article is in The Tablet, well fancy that :wh:

Hi Brian,

I get a whiff of the same thing happening in the Anglican Church in England as well
Readers/Church Workers and selected few taking Bible classes etc becoming Lay-ministers.

I wonder if this is a move toward 'Permanent Deacons' perhaps?

Yours in His Name,

Colin.
JESUS IS LORD


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James
James
We have permanent deacons Colin but their duties are limited to assisting.
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Ned

Have I misunderstood, or is some sort of ' Temporary Ordination by Local Election' being suggested?

The idea is potty ! And for all sorts of reasons.

But there is a massive problem:

Quote:
 
The ranks of Dutch Dominicans have thinned along with those of other clergy, and now number only 90 men. Since 2000 around 200 parishes in the Netherlands have been closed due to the lack of priests and the fall in church attendance
[/color]


But what's set down here isn't a solution. It's a suicide note.

Quote:
 

Whether they are women or men, homo- or heterosexual, married or single, makes no difference. What is important is an infectious attitude of faith," said the brochure, which has been approved by the Dutch order's leaders.


First and foremost it's not only madness in human terms but the idea of electing priests is against the whole ethos of Christianity and the Bible.

Men did not elect Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah or Ezekiel - they were chosen by God, And they weren't very happy about it. Saul from Tarsus was an out-and-out enemy of Christ, and highly respected among the Jews on that account. Jesus chose him - Paul didn't have a choice. He certainly wasn't elected.

I don't recall any mention of elections in Timothy I or II, or Titus.

I will not sully the Forum, or start another row, by suggesting some of the clergymen likely to have climbed to high office if we had elections by the laity. But thank fully we haven't - not yet anyway.
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Rose of York
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I have rarely felt so angry about potty proposals for the future of our Church. No, it is not potty. It is sheer insurrection.

The reason I feel so angry is that these ideas have not come from laity involved in fringe groups that question Church teaching and disciplines. They come from a religious order with the proper name Order of Preachers. They are specialists, highly educated in scripture, tradition, dogma and Church history.

These men have let down The Pope, Saint Dominic, the Order of Preachers, and themselves. They should have the decency to step down and petition for laicisation - then clear off to independent churches and become lay preachers.

If this proposal were adopted I would rather form a small group to meet weekly for prayer and mutual support, than attend a fake Mass presided over by an elected parishioner.

Who will be elected? The best flower arranger?
Keep the Faith!

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PJD


This was mentioned to me by a priestly canon only a few days ago. Not as a joke but something to wonder at for such a holy religious order. We spoke a little about St.Dominic, who I understand worked many miracles in his time and was a brilliant preacher.

As for the matter - it was treated with incredulity (not sure have spelt that okay) - and left at that. The canon does have the Tablet regularly, but that wasn't mentioned.

It was more or less left as 'daft'.

PJD
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Yes, it's a step too far for me too. However, it is good to see people wrestling with ideas and suggesting ways forward however much we disagree with them. Many of us have had a moan in the forum about the closure of churches, "clustering" of parishes and other more orthodox ideas to meet the present shortage of priests in the West. This paper does suggest an alternative, however outlandish it seems and it at least tries to think "outside the box" if that is the correct management jargon to use.

Regards

John
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Sep 10 2007, 07:49 PM
Yes, it's a step too far for me too.

If its a step too far for John it is too far. ;)

Keep the Faith!

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paul

The priesthood is a vocation. The individual discerns that he is being called by God. This is not open to interpretation or modification. He takes a vow of celibacy in some orders poverty. These are well tried and tested and have stood the test of time for the last two thousand years.

I am quite happy with the status quo thank you very much.

As someone else suggested let these liberals go out of the church where they might find what they are looking for. Good ridance!

paul
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Paul
You say priests are called by God and not selected by other humans. What is your view on those priests who fail to live up to their vocation? Is it simply that they falsely thought they had a vocation in the first place and if so how were they allowed to proceed to ordination? Or is it that they genuinely had a vocation but their misdemeanours were too great for the Church to tolerate? Either way, still many thorny issues raised.

Regards

John
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Sep 10 2007, 08:41 PM
What is your view on those priests who fail to live up to their vocation? Is it simply that they falsely thought they had a vocation in the first place and if so how were they allowed to proceed to ordination?

Six years in seminary and nobody noticed they were not cut out for priesthood?

There is something gravely wrong in the system.
Keep the Faith!

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Deacon Robert
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Rose of York Posted on Sep 10 2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:
 
Six years in seminary and nobody noticed they were not cut out for priesthood?

There is something gravely wrong in the system.


Exactly right. The man may have thought he was called to ministry, where were his superiors in the process? Is the hierarchy so desparate that they are willing to let anyone become a Priest?

As an aside to this discussion, I have spoken to seminarians who have never had a psych exam and who have never had a formal evaluation by their director of vocations. As long as they pass their courses they are ordained
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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