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Sacraments In Pre 1970's Rites
Topic Started: Sunday, 9. September 2007, 01:24 (429 Views)
Rose of York
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MOTU PROPRIO: SUMMUM PONTIFICUM: comes into legal force in the Church next Saturday. This gives extra Liturgical Rites to the Faithful. Any of the Sacraments may be Celebrated by either the new or previous liturgical texts. Basically, the People can ask for the Mass of Blessed John XXIII at any time, and the Celebration of the other Sacraments as they were Celebrated before the 1970's. People may ask their priest for the Celebration of Baptism, Confession, Anointing of the Sick, Marriage and the Mass (includes Requiem). These rights the Pope has declared have to be met. Pope Benedict is also wanting the Celebration of the Mass and other Sacraments to be Celebrated with dignity and according to the authorised Rites (words & gestures particularly). He along with the Bishops is expecting and wanting a wider use of Latin in the Church Celebrations. The Church has said that we should all know the various chants and so forth. It is indeed a very interesting and challenging time for the Church. The Pope is calling for more stability and clarity in our worship and in our proclamation of the Faith.


That is from this week's newsletter on the linked website. It is the first I have heard of a right to opt for receiving Sacraments and Requiem Masses in the pre-1970's Rite. Well kept secret?

Link to a Leeds Diocese parish website
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Karin
I'm hoping this will bring new growth to the Church. Some of us oldsters prefer the old traditions and celebrations, but also like the Novus Ordo as well. I'll dust off my Liturgical Latin and see how well I do at the Cathedral here in La Crosse next week, when the Tridentine Mass is celebrated. I have my old St. Joseph's missal, circa 1957 with me - Latin on one side, English on the other. I'll see how well I do!
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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PJD

Rose:

As usual I am being awkward but....e.g.

"Basically, the People can ask for the Mass of Blessed John XXIII at any time"

Is this one person or one hundred - note the people in cap t and p.

I'm not happy with the inferences in the text you put on; but that's me.

PJD

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Gerard

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These rights the Pope has declared have to be met.


Reference please....

Gerry

Edited to add that I flatly dont believe this.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerry the only reference I can give is the one in the opening post. That is the newsletter of a parish. As the paragraph quoted is not an official Diocesan announcement, I can only assume it was typed by the parish priest or a parishioner. I cannot say why "people" has a capital P.

That parish is far from extremist in any direction. Tridentine Mass has been offered on Saturdays for about a year. There is no agenda, to sway the parish or parishioners towards any particular liturgies. They are given choice.

Gerard
Sep 9 2007, 09:02 AM
Quote:
 
These rights the Pope has declared have to be met.


Reference please....

Gerry

Edited to add that I flatly dont believe this.


If it is not true, that makes the parish priest a liar or a fool.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
There was something on Fr Tim Finigan's blog a few weeks back where commenters were asking at what point you ask the priest for the "extraordinary" form of Confession.

Do you ask when you enter the confessional, or after you say "Bless me Father etc", or after you've confessed your sins?

Or does the priest offer the "extraordinary" form of Confession at set times?

:blink:

Clare.
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Gerard
Sep 9 2007, 09:02 AM
Quote:
 
These rights the Pope has declared have to be met.


Reference please....

Gerry

Edited to add that I flatly dont believe this.

From the Motu Proprio
Quote:
 
Art. 9. õ 1 The pastor, having attentively examined all aspects, may also grant permission to use the earlier ritual for the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism, Marriage, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick, if the good of souls would seem to require it. õ 2 Ordinaries are given the right to celebrate the Sacrament of Confirmation using the earlier Roman Pontifical, if the good of souls would seem to require it. õ 2 Clerics ordained "in sacris constitutis" may use the Roman Breviary promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962.
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Gerard

KatA

Thank you, and the quote you provide does contadict the statement in the parish news letter which Rose posted to start this thread. The pastor may grant the request but is not required to do so.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD


Probably by a lay person Rose (smile)

PJD
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Rose of York
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PJD
Sep 9 2007, 12:30 PM
Probably by a lay person Rose (smile)

PJD

Probably, PJD, by a lay person with the approval of the pp. That is a very active parish,very busy with lots going on. I know it well and can assure you, the laity are very involved but not in charge.
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Gerard
Sep 9 2007, 12:23 PM
KatA

Thank you, and the quote you provide does contadict the statement in the parish news letter which Rose posted to start this thread. The pastor may grant the request but is not required to do so.

Gerry

Taking a second look at the MP, there is another paragraph
Quote:
 
§ 3 For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16Su...mPontificum.htm

This does seem to give the right to ask for celebration of the Sacraments in the Traditional Rite

KatyA
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Rose of York
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Article 9 specifically mentions permission to use the earlier ritual for the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism, Marriage, Penance, and Confirmation.

KatyA
Sep 9 2007, 12:56 PM


http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16Su...mPontificum.htm

This does seem to give the right to ask for celebration of the Sacraments in the Traditional Rite

KatyA

Quote:
 
Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

§ 2 Celebration in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII may take place on working days; while on Sundays and feast days one such celebration may also be held.

§ 3 For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages.

§ 4 Priests who use the Missal of Bl. John XXIII must be qualified to do so and not juridically impeded.

§ 5 In churches that are not parish or conventual churches, it is the duty of the Rector of the church to grant the above permission.

Art. 6. In Masses celebrated in the presence of the people in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII, the readings may be given in the vernacular, using editions recognised by the Apostolic See.

Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 õ 1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested to satisfy their wishes. If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei".

Art. 8. A bishop who, desirous of satisfying such requests, but who for various reasons is unable to do so, may refer the problem to the Commission "Ecclesia Dei" to obtain counsel and assistance.

Art. 9. § 1 The pastor, having attentively examined all aspects, may also grant permission to use the earlier ritual for the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism, Marriage, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick, if the good of souls would seem to require it.

§ 2 Ordinaries are given the right to celebrate the Sacrament of Confirmation using the earlier Roman Pontifical, if the good of souls would seem to require it.
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Gerard

Of course people have the right to ask !

Quote:
 
People may ask their priest for the Celebration of Baptism, Confession, Anointing of the Sick, Marriage and the Mass (includes Requiem). These rights the Pope has declared have to be met.


Thats not what the newsletter said. It said they have to be met.

Sloppy language?
Sophistry?
Manipulation?
A mistake?

Rose,

When you posted that did you think it meant they had only the right to ask or did you think it meant of they asked it had to be granted?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Sep 9 2007, 02:09 PM
Sloppy language?
Sophistry?
Manipulation?
A mistake?

Rose,

When you posted that did you think it meant they had only the right to ask or did you think it meant of they asked it had to be granted?

Gerry

Gerry I think you are being pedantic, picking holes in an announcement made in good faith.

I only made the posting to let the people to whom the old liturgies are important, know that at least one parish is giving them some consideration. For all I know the bishop might have given an instruction to his priests, that they must respect the wishes of parishioners who indicate they wish to make the choices mentioned in the bulletin.

That is the website of the parish where my faith was nurtured in my childhood. I for one do not want my funeral to be dressed up as a celebration or commemoration of the Life of Rose. I am considering altering my will, to include my request that my mortal remains be taken back there, for a dignified Requiem. Prayers for the repose of my soul, not dishonest assurances I am in Heaven, are my idea of a Catholic funeral. There must be no eulogy, telling fibs about my virtuous life. My family and old school friends know too much to believe that. They can commend my soul to the mercy of God, bury me in a family grave that has room for one more, then have an enjoyable meal and drink together and have a laugh about some of the things I did in my youth.

:D

It will be just my luck if the parish priest and bishop move on before I make my departure from this earth.

:D
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Sep 9 2007, 02:09 PM
When you posted that did you think it meant they had only the right to ask or did you think it meant of they asked it had to be granted?

Are you suggesting that it is reasonable that the Pope inform his flock that they have a right to ask for something, and meanwhile allow that noone need supply what the faithful have a right to ask for?!

What was it that Jesus said about fathers, bread, and stones?

It may not be incumbent on each individual priest to meet these requests. But that they must be met by someone would seem to be a reasonable corollary to our right to request them.

Clare.
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