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Subversive Elements
Topic Started: Tuesday, 4. September 2007, 14:09 (790 Views)
Fortunatus

A "tightening up", as you call it, is certainly called for in certain quarters.
Reading some of the postings on this site I detect the presence of a subversive element within the Church, fatally infected by a 1960s attitude to religion and life in general which was characterised at the time as 'do your own thing'.
It's more properly known as moral relativism and is a reprehensible characteristic in any man and most particularly in a Catholic.
It betrays itself initially in a disregard for Church tradition and is quickly followed by an apparent belief that rules do not matter since they are devised, as we know, by wise men for the guidance of fools.
Those of us who recognise that compared to God we are the lowest of fools are happy to obey the rules which his Church lays down. Others, afflicted by the sin of pride, refuse to acknowledge their foolishness and continue to proclaim the irrelevance of custom and tradition and stop only barely short of believing in the irrelevance of order and obedience.
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Ned

Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 01:09 PM

Those of us who recognise that compared to God we are the lowest of fools are happy to obey the rules which his Church lays down.

Others, afflicted by the sin of pride, refuse to acknowledge their foolishness and continue to proclaim the irrelevance of custom and tradition and stop only barely short of believing in the irrelevance of order and obedience.

Hi Fortunatus,

I don't think that it's that simple. Just for example:

. all the rules changed in the sixties.

. In some dioceses nowadays the priorities and styles of church-worship seem to change every time the PP moves on.

.

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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 10:05 PM

And the paradox is that those who have encouraged the 'do your own thing' attitude are infinitely more intolerant and authoritarian about their rules than the Church very often is about the real rules.

Fortunatus you may be happily surprised to learn that though members of this forum are a mixed bunch, including lovers of the Tridentine Rite and people who are happy to attend the New Rite of Holy Mass, on this forum tolerance reigns. The stated ethos of the forum is, that we respect all liturgical Rites and liturgical practises approved by The Holy See. I don't think you will find people on here who agree that priests can make up their own rules as they go along.

One rule that was changed by Vatican II was, that Mass in the vernacular was permitted.
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

I have already found that members of this forum are a mixed bunch, Rose, mainly through observing them for some time before joining. To what extent tolerance is, or should be, allowed to reign on a Catholic forum is a matter which we could debate, assuming you are tolerant enough to allow it.
I have no problem with any of the edicts issued by the Holy See. If the Pope is prepared to permit the celebration of Holy Mass in the vernacular then I shall obey him as I do every Sunday.
If you, or anyone on this forum, is not aware of the extent to which parish priests in the late 60s and early 70s were advising married couples to 'let their conscience be their guide' in matters relating to contraception then you and they were living in a different world from the one I was in.
In case you missed my opening comment, I shall repeat it:
Quote:
 
The rules that matter cannot change, at least not in any fundamental way.

I stand by that statement as, I believe, do the overwhelming majority of Catholics.
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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 10:49 PM
In case you missed my opening comment, I shall repeat it:
Quote:
 
The rules that matter cannot change, at least not in any fundamental way.

I stand by that statement as, I believe, do the overwhelming majority of Catholics.

And so do the majority of members of this forum.

Can we keep this thread for Motu Proprio please?
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

I must apologise.
I didn't realise there were two different classes of member on this site — those who are allowed to divert from the main stream of the thread occasionally and those who get snapped at when they do.
Perhaps I will just sit quietly in my box for a while till I understand better.
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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Sep 5 2007, 10:26 AM
I must apologise.
I didn't realise there were two different classes of member on this site — those who are allowed to divert from the main stream of the thread occasionally and those who get snapped at when they do.
Perhaps I will just sit quietly in my box for a while till I understand better.


There is no need to apologise. The request (not admonition) was not meant for any one individual.
Keep the Faith!

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Eve
Former Admin/Moderator
Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 02:09 PM
Reading some of the postings on this site I detect the presence of a subversive element within the Church, fatally infected by a 1960s attitude to religion and life in general which was characterised at the time as 'do your own thing'.
It's more properly known as moral relativism and is a reprehensible characteristic in any man and most particularly in a Catholic.
It betrays itself initially in a disregard for Church tradition and is quickly followed by an apparent belief that rules do not matter since they are devised, as we know, by wise men for the guidance of fools.
Those of us who recognise that compared to God we are the lowest of fools are happy to obey the rules which his Church lays down. Others, afflicted by the sin of pride, refuse to acknowledge their foolishness and continue to proclaim the irrelevance of custom and tradition and stop only barely short of believing in the irrelevance of order and obedience.

Fortunatus, welcome to this forum.

There are many subversive elements within the Church, there always have been and always will be. Provided posts on this forum comply with Forum Rules and Guidelines, the admin staff leave them on.

We discuss doctrine, tradition, church history, scripture, amongst other things. Often a person will have a mistaken opinion about a Church doctrine. Members discuss and learn. We have sometimes been approached by converts and by people who have returned to practise of their faith, seeking guidance.

Members do their best. We have a member of the clergy on the forum. We ask his advice when we feel the need.
Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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Fortunatus

This forum runs to 15 pages, totalling 300 separate threads, most of which I have at least dipped into in order to find out what the general demeanour is of the people who inhabit this world, what their political (in religious terms) beliefs and philosophies are and whether my views, even if in some cases perhaps less than immediately popular, would be acceptable and accepted as a basis for discussion.
I might also be allowed to point out that I am of fairly advanced years though still in possession of most of my faculties.
I am also moderately tolerant of other people's foibles though as one gets older and time gets shorter this tolerance also tends to wane just a little.

One thing I have never been tolerant of in my life and will not put up with now is being patronised.
The request (not admonition) is definitely not meant for any one individual. :angry:
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Alice

Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 01:09 PM
A "tightening up", as you call it, is certainly called for in certain quarters.


I'm the housekeeper round here. See my profile.

Want some spring cleaning done in the quarters? Its summer so it will have to wait.
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Eve
Former Admin/Moderator
Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 02:09 PM

Reading some of the postings on this site I detect the presence of a subversive element within the Church

Fortunatus do you suggest that you detect that among Catholic Cyberforum membersthe presence of a subversive element within the Church/

We pride ourselves on our policy of loyalty to The Catholic Church. You will see in forum rules that we only promote approved organisations.
Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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saundthorp

Fortunatus
Sep 4 2007, 01:09 PM
A "tightening up", as you call it, is certainly called for in certain quarters.
Reading some of the postings on this site I detect the presence of a subversive element within the Church, fatally infected by a 1960s attitude to religion and life in general which was characterised at the time as 'do your own thing'.
It's more properly known as moral relativism and is a reprehensible characteristic in any man and most particularly in a Catholic.
It betrays itself initially in a disregard for Church tradition and is quickly followed by an apparent belief that rules do not matter since they are devised, as we know, by wise men for the guidance of fools.
Those of us who recognise that compared to God we are the lowest of fools are happy to obey the rules which his Church lays down. Others, afflicted by the sin of pride, refuse to acknowledge their foolishness and continue to proclaim the irrelevance of custom and tradition and stop only barely short of believing in the irrelevance of order and obedience.

Fortunarus,

I don't think there are that many "Subversive Elements" on this discussion board. Rose sees to that. Of course there are subversive elements within the Church but I think they took root in an organised way somewhat later than the 60's.

I recently obtained an excellent booklet titled, "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing". It has been produced by the catholic.com web site, one of the foremost Catholic apologetics sites in the world. The book gives a detailed account of areas of serious dissent that is blatently out in the open within the Church.

Perhaps you could to give examples of the sort of dissent from Catholic teaching you have found on this site.
Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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Rose of York
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saundthorp
Sep 5 2007, 08:33 PM
I don't think there are that many "Subversive Elements" on this discussion board. Rose sees to that.


Thank you for your kind words, Saundthorp. May I add to it?

Credit is due to Alan, Eve and Katy. Circumstances make it possible for me to be on hand most of the time, but I assure all members we act as a team of equals. If one of us senses there is a serious problem on the forum, we would chew it over together.
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

saundthorp,
You picked up my quote without, as far as I can tell, reading it.
Go and have another look at what I actually wrote and address yourself to that.
(Clue: the key word is 'teaching').
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Mrs Jamie

Fortunatus - we already have several grumpy old curmudgeons on this forum (they know who they are!!!) so I am sure you will soon find yourself among friends :D :D :D

But if anything is vital to a "discussion" forum it is varying shades of opinion - if we were all to agree with everything we each said, Rose could shut up shop immediately.....

So welcome - but don't be too harsh with us....... :wh:
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