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Home Schooling
Topic Started: Sunday, 12. August 2007, 14:19 (1,310 Views)
PJD


"We are not quite there yet"

We are pushing close. Fight or go underground?

PJD
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Mar 5 2008, 09:26 AM
Catholic Culture also comments on the case
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One of the characteristic marks of a totalitarian society is compulsory State-controlled education for ideological purposes. We are not quite there yet, but we do well to reflect on who controls education, and for what ends.


That is precisely why some politicians want rid of Catholic schools, they exert influence, teaching children the true path. For the same reason some wish to rob parents of their power to choose, either a school of their choice, or home schooling. We cannot have children growing up with minds of their own, not following Government's take on morality, can we? Tut, tut, they might rock the secular boat when they grow up, they might even go around promoting marriage, thrift, industry, honesty, and (oh, dear!) God.

Keep the Faith!

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DeniseLawson
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Deacon Robert
Jan 4 2008, 08:36 PM
As I said before, I don't know where you live, the behavior you describe is the exception, not the rule. If you have read my previous post you will see that I have spent at least 8 years among students both during school hours and outside of school hours and have rarely seen the behavior you claim is prevalent. If an incident occurs there are also penalties imposed. Criminal acts are reported to the police. behavior problems are referred to the administration. possible outcomes range from detetion to expulsion. Please, there is no need to reply. You are intent on inferring that all school systems in the US and those employed by them as being either inferior, corrupt, or incompetent. If this is what you believe, feel free, you are welcome to your opinion.

I will reply because I have seen several different school systems in several different states. I have seen the very good, the very bad, and several in between. I suspect the vast majority are the in between.

While I agree with you that what Jen has described is not what goes on everywhere, I will also say I suspect it is far more widespread than you are claiming. I have seen very good school systems, and I was lucky to have attended good schools myself. That said, however, I have also been places where 75% of high school seniors are not prepared to start college when they graduate, much less make it in the real world with just a high school diploma. I have been in school districts where English-speaking students have been told they need to learn in a foreign language or go to private school, because the teachers are refusing to teach in English because it is not the native language of the dominant minority group in that school. I have been in school districts where students have been taught by teachers who were illiterate - literally, they could not read, and no, I'm not kidding.

On the flip side, I've also seen school districts at the opposite end of the spectrum - where not only are the teachers competent, but the students are prepared for life beyond high school - whether that's being ready to attend college, or being well-prepared to enter the work force. I've seen school districts that had programs available for kids to pursue career training for their interests beyond high school - either in a trade, or start their college education early, if that is the path they are going down. I've seen school districts - and sometimes very poorly-funded ones - that are consistently producing large numbers of merit scholars - sometimes many more per capital than some of the better funded districts around them.

My point? From what I've seen, you're both right. Also, from what I've seen, the defining difference in how good or bad a school seems to be is ultimately the parents. Stated simply, the more involved the parents in their child's education, the more likely that child will get a good education. Some of those "worst school districts" that I have seen have all had a common theme - high drop-out rates, high numbers of students who have poorly-educated or un-educated parents that do not value an education (as opposed to those who are not well educated but still realize the value of a good education, not necessarily as opposed to well-educated parents), students with parents who just don't care, or do care but just can't cope, or any other number of factors, students whose parents have taught them they can do no wrong, etc. Regardless, though, from what I've seen - the overall health of any given school district goes right back to the dominant attitude of the parents in that school district.
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JRJ

DeniseLawson
Mar 7 2008, 08:29 AM
Deacon Robert
Jan 4 2008, 08:36 PM
As I said before, I don't know where you live, the behavior you describe is the exception, not the rule. If you have read my previous post you will see that I have spent at least 8 years among students both during school hours and outside of school hours and have rarely seen the behavior you claim is prevalent. If an incident occurs there are also penalties imposed. Criminal acts are reported to the police. behavior problems are referred to the administration. possible outcomes range from detetion to expulsion. Please, there is no need to reply. You are intent on inferring that all school systems in the US and those employed by them as being either inferior, corrupt, or incompetent. If this is what you believe, feel free, you are welcome to your opinion.

I will reply because I have seen several different school systems in several different states. I have seen the very good, the very bad, and several in between. I suspect the vast majority are the in between.

While I agree with you that what Jen has described is not what goes on everywhere, I will also say I suspect it is far more widespread than you are claiming. I have seen very good school systems, and I was lucky to have attended good schools myself. That said, however, I have also been places where 75% of high school seniors are not prepared to start college when they graduate, much less make it in the real world with just a high school diploma. I have been in school districts where English-speaking students have been told they need to learn in a foreign language or go to private school, because the teachers are refusing to teach in English because it is not the native language of the dominant minority group in that school. I have been in school districts where students have been taught by teachers who were illiterate - literally, they could not read, and no, I'm not kidding.

On the flip side, I've also seen school districts at the opposite end of the spectrum - where not only are the teachers competent, but the students are prepared for life beyond high school - whether that's being ready to attend college, or being well-prepared to enter the work force. I've seen school districts that had programs available for kids to pursue career training for their interests beyond high school - either in a trade, or start their college education early, if that is the path they are going down. I've seen school districts - and sometimes very poorly-funded ones - that are consistently producing large numbers of merit scholars - sometimes many more per capital than some of the better funded districts around them.

My point? From what I've seen, you're both right. Also, from what I've seen, the defining difference in how good or bad a school seems to be is ultimately the parents. Stated simply, the more involved the parents in their child's education, the more likely that child will get a good education. Some of those "worst school districts" that I have seen have all had a common theme - high drop-out rates, high numbers of students who have poorly-educated or un-educated parents that do not value an education (as opposed to those who are not well educated but still realize the value of a good education, not necessarily as opposed to well-educated parents), students with parents who just don't care, or do care but just can't cope, or any other number of factors, students whose parents have taught them they can do no wrong, etc. Regardless, though, from what I've seen - the overall health of any given school district goes right back to the dominant attitude of the parents in that school district.

It's good to hear from someone with broader experience.

Parents in the US have been encouraged to abdicate their responsibility for their children by government becoming more and more involved in their lives. I agree with you, Denise. It always comes back to the parents, as God intended and natural law and experience show.
Jennifer
hubby's dinosaur blog
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Fr.Tim Finigan draws attention to the Report to the Secretary of State on the Review of Elective Home Education in England,available in pdf format HERE and to Ed Ball's letter in response HERE
I have not yet had time for an in depth look at the report, but Fr Finigan sees it as bad news for home schoolers
Quote:
 
The Badman-Balls approach is a fundamental contradiction of the true relationship between state education and the family. The school should be considered as acting "in loco parentis" (in the place of the parent) because the parents are the first educators and carers for their own children. This latest review and its recommendations assume that the state is the primordial educator and carer and that if parents "elect" to educate their children without the help of the state, they are effectively acting "in loco rei publicae" (in the place of the state) and must therefore be registered, monitored, reviewed...

... pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed and numbered?
Hermeneutic of Continuity
He also posted a clip from The Prisoner
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Rose of York
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Is Father Tim Finnigan aware that home schooling is on occasion used as an excuse for not educating children? I know of such a case.

Home schooling can be good, but I think there needs to be some standard set. How can a barely educated parent give a child an education of sufficiently high standard to fultil their potential? At school, a neglected child has a second chance, if the parents provide no mental stimulation the teachers can to some extent fill that gap.

I ask, if a child is persistently bruised in a violent home could the parents claim to be home schooling, so their secret is safe.

Do home schooling parents have to notify the authorities they are educating their own child?
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 24. June 2009, 23:37
Is Father Tim Finnigan aware that home schooling is on occasion used as an excuse for not educating children? I know of such a case.
I know someone who is adamant that you shouldn't try to sell your house until you've painted over any green paintwork, because some people are superstitious about the colour green. "Some people" being one of his aunts!

There may well be a handful of cases of homeschooling parents not bothering, but even in those cases, I doubt the children would be any better off school-schooled.

Quote:
 
How can a barely educated parent give a child an education of sufficiently high standard to fultil their potential?


I don't think barely educated parents try it.

Quote:
 
Do home schooling parents have to notify the authorities they are educating their own child?


As far as I know, the authorities only need to know if the child has been withdrawn from an actual school.

That'll probably change.
Edited by Clare, Friday, 26. June 2009, 17:58.
S.A.G.

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http://www.oxfordhomeschooling.co.uk/GeneralInformation/HomeSchoolingAndTheLaw.htm

I came across this it may help answer some questions.
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JRJ

Rose of York
Wednesday, 24. June 2009, 23:37
Is Father Tim Finnigan aware that home schooling is on occasion used as an excuse for not educating children? I know of such a case.

Home schooling can be good, but I think there needs to be some standard set. How can a barely educated parent give a child an education of sufficiently high standard to fultil their potential? At school, a neglected child has a second chance, if the parents provide no mental stimulation the teachers can to some extent fill that gap.

I ask, if a child is persistently bruised in a violent home could the parents claim to be home schooling, so their secret is safe.

Do home schooling parents have to notify the authorities they are educating their own child?
Ah, but children persistently bruised (and more) in a violent home can be and are ignored in the government schools - I was one of those in the 1970's and early 1980's. I spoke at length with school counselors about what was happening to me from ages 7 to 13. Result: no action. I gave up, stayed out of the house as much as possible and waited to reach university and escape. I was "white" and our family was middle-class and so not a priority for the ideology of the times.

A certain portion of children suffer all the time, every day, all over the world in all circumstances.

Here in the US today, there is an epidemic of government school teachers having sexual relations with children - often female teachers with boys. There was sexual harassment by male teachers in two schools I attended - I saw it and once experienced it (he never expected that elbow to the midsection and also never bothered me again).

I could give many recent examples of child neglect, endangerment, abuse, and exploitation, - we all see the news reports. We have it in the Church, in homes, in schools of all types, in private and government institutions.

You cannot completely eliminate the strong taking advantage of the weak in this world.

Government deciding the education of children over the rights of the parents in general to uncover a few cases of abuse is just another step toward absolute government control and the end of any personal liberty. It begins with having to notify the authorities. It ends with the authorities running our lives, as in the case of the poor woman whose mother was taken from her home by force despite providing better (and excellent) care for the poor woman than the government-run center. We ask too much and expect too much of government, which does most things very badly at exponentially higher cost than individuals, families and communities can manage. The Archdiocese of New Jersey provides a year of education at US$8,445 per pupil; the New Jersey government schools spend US$12,806 per pupil. Homeschooling parents spend on average US$550 per year on top of paying their taxes that fund the government schoools (usually through property taxes on real estate).

Jennifer
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Clare
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JRJ
Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:40
Government deciding the education of children over the rights of the parents in general to uncover a few cases of abuse is just another step toward absolute government control and the end of any personal liberty.
Well said, Jennifer.

It would seem that the government is using the remote possibility of homeschoolers abusing their children as an excuse to interfere. They just cannot stand the idea that not all children are undergoing the State brainwashing program that schools provide.
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tomais

Which goverment ?
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Rose of York
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Is there any statistical evidence available, about the number of home schooling parents who have been convicted of abusing or neglecting their children?

JRJ and Clare are beginning to convert me to their way of thinking.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Rose of York
Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:38
Is there any statistical evidence available, about the number of home schooling parents who have been convicted of abusing or neglecting their children?
Or, to put it another way, what proportion of parents convicted of abuse or neglect homeschool, and what proportion school-school?


Quote:
 
JRJ and Clare are beginning to convert me to their way of thinking.


I never thought I'd see the day!
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JRJ

Rose of York
Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:38
Is there any statistical evidence available, about the number of home schooling parents who have been convicted of abusing or neglecting their children?

JRJ and Clare are beginning to convert me to their way of thinking.
A fair question. I'll look as soon as I can squeeze it in - lots of Grandbaby time this week :juggle: .
Jennifer
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JRJ

This is from a pro-homeschooling group in Virginia, USA: http://www.vahomeschoolers.org/issues/child_abuse.asp
VaHomeschoolers Asserts That:

Child abuse is a societal problem, not unique to or limited to the homeschooling community.

* Most of the highly publicized cases of child abuse have involved families who were already known to social services for truancy or abuse, and who were already in violation of existing laws set up to protect children.
* Many of the highly publicized cases of child abuse have involved families who were in violation of the compulsory attendance laws in their state. Even though the families may have claimed that they were homeschooling, they were not complying with the homeschooling or school attendance laws in their county.
* Representatives of Virginia Child Protective Services (CPS) acknowledge that homeschoolers are not a target population of CPS investigations. See VaHomeschoolers' article, Answering the CPS Questions.

VaHomeschoolers is happy to discuss these and any other homeschooling-related issues with any interested parties. If you are a journalist writing a story on homeschooling, and are looking for a new angle, see the VaHomeschoolers Media page. To contact us about this or any other homeschooling issue, email VaHomeschoolers.


From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Potential_for_unmonitored_child_abuse
Potential for unmonitored child abuse

A Washington, D.C. mother who had withdrawn her four children from public school has been charged with their murder. It has been claimed that the homeschooling exemption in the District of Columbia allowed the abuse of the children to occur undetected.[82] Increased regulation of homeschooling in DC has been enacted in response to these events.[83] But some legal commentators have noted that child abuse occurs in public school and state social care systems, and that there is no evidence suggesting that abuse among homeschoolers is more pervasive or severe than the considerable dangers encountered in government institutions.[84]


AND

Distribution of Home School Students and Students Nationally Classified by Parent Academic Attainment: 1999, Education Policy Analysis Archives.[63] Did not finish high school High school graduate only Some college, no degree Associate degree Bachelors degree Masters degree Doctorate
Home school fathers 1.2% 9.3% 16.4% 6.9% 37.6% 19.8% 8.8%
Males nationally 18.1 32.0 19.5 6.4 15.6 5.4 3.1
Home school mothers 0.5 11.3 21.8 9.7 47.2 8.8 0.7
Females nationally 17.2 34.2 20.2 7.7 14.8 4.5 1.3

In contrast, Lawrence Rudner's (University of Maryland) 1998 study shows that homeschool parents have a higher income than average (1.4 times by one estimate),[53] and are more likely to have an advanced education. Rudner found that homeschooling parents tend to have more formal education than parents in the general population; that the median income for homeschooling families ($52,000) is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States ($36,000); that 98% of homeschooled children live in "married couple families"; that 77% of home school mothers do not participate in the labour force, whereas 98% of homeschooling fathers do participate in the labour force; and that median annual expenses for educational materials are approximately $400 per home school student.[64]

A 2001 study by Dr. Clive Belfield states that the average homeschooling parent is a woman with a college degree. Belfield estimates annual homeschooling costs to be approximately $2,500 per child[65]



Given that 98% of homeschooled children live in intact two-parent mother and father families, I would surmise that there is a great deal less incidence of abuse of homeschooled children than in the general population. US studies on marital status show over and over and over... that children in intact, two-parent mother and father families have better outcomes in all areas of life, including educational attainment, criminal activity and incidence of abuse.
Jennifer
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