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New Rite Of Mass; just to mention
Topic Started: Tuesday, 7. August 2007, 23:04 (545 Views)
Rose of York
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Derekap
Aug 13 2007, 09:59 PM
So far, this discussion has been mainly appreciative of The Church since Vatican 2. Let it not degenerate into a slanging match between mods and trads.

It won't, Derek.

Keep the Faith!

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nelly k

Iam looking forward to going to Mass on Wednesday a Holyday I regulary dont get, but Ive made sure that I can get there. The Novena has been a great encouragement for me.
nelly
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
PJD
Aug 13 2007, 08:23 PM
Justs trying to be helpful Clare; as you do in your own way.

The straw man was the idea that we trads think everything was just fine before the changes.

I know it wasn't.

I just think it was ahem "better". Not "perfect". Just "better".

That's all.

Now, I'll leave the y'all in peace!

:tc:

Clare.
S.A.G.

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Rose of York
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Clare
Aug 13 2007, 10:55 PM
PJD
Aug 13 2007, 08:23 PM
Justs trying to be helpful Clare; as you do in your own way.

The straw man was the idea that we trads think everything was just fine before the changes.

I know it wasn't.

I just think it was ahem "better". Not "perfect". Just "better".


Some things were "different". Some people prefer the old. Some prefer the new. Provided Mass is valid, reverent, and in an approved Rite, all is well.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Rose/Clare:

Yes I agree with Derek there is no need for any slanging match; this is not the lower house (smile, but meant with a degree of affection).

I admit I misunderstood what Clare meant by the phrase straw man – although I cannot understand her saying she will leave us in peace – ducking out doesn’t seem to be her style. I hope she continues……

Nelly:

“Some of that I didn’t understand, the two bits that caught me were the comments about "hedonism" and "annihilation" and for me this is about the 2 political ideologies”

Yes I agree with you. It was only natural I think that this reflection should have been included in the light of the circumstances of the age when the Council occurred. In fact you could say that the reference to hedonism was somewhat prophetic in the sense that it is far worse now than it was then.

A reflection that wasn’t mentioned [except in the context of ‘conduct’] was in respect of Nepotism and Sycophantism. In my opinion if the closing speech was re-drafted now it should certainly reference these two terms, and at a guess I would expect the Holy Father to touch upon these at some stage of another – for really they are still quite serious imperfections indwelling both in the ecclesiastical and the secular. For example, turning to sycophantism, and in particular the academic culture of the pre V2 eras, I think there is little doubt that ‘rendering to Caesar’ was overplayed at the expense of rendering to God, and the proscriptions of catechesis in this regard saw little light.

PJD
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Derekap
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Pause for reference to my dictionary.
Derekap
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Emee
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Sorry PJD just run that by me again.

Are you saying that academia pre VII was full of sycophantic behaviour? Where? In theological circles? In universities? In trendy London bohemian sets?

Please explain.

I find your writings fascinating (I'm not being sycophantic here B) - just truthful!), even if they are a little hard to follow...
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
PJD
Aug 14 2007, 01:40 PM
I admit I misunderstood what Clare meant by the phrase straw man – although I cannot understand her saying she will leave us in peace – ducking out doesn’t seem to be her style. I hope she continues……

Do you want a brawl here then?!

:wacko:

Clare.
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nelly k

I think I just maybe understand PJD, but please clear it up for me if not,

Possibly pre V2 there was a culture within the knowlege based ie clever accademic folk of the Church and just may be it went too far and became removed from the every day lifes of Catholics so things that should have been explianed or justified were not and also that this was a bit of a club, then up comes Communisim Consumerism, and the Church were not ready lots of Challenges to the Faith, this is all me just trying to get my head round it, I think these two things did grab the attention of all and we were at great risk of losing our way completly.


For me the New Rite can be a great revelation when I listen to the Old and New Testemant and the Gospel, and the Priest in His Homly ties it all in, but before hearing all this we are asked to think about what we have done and "Confess to Almighty God " and then "Gloria". So Iam asked to recognise my errors /mistakes and then praise and Glorify God, so to get my mind set and open to the word of God.
nelly
Somtimes though I do wander and think about aother things.
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Rose of York
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nelly k
Aug 14 2007, 10:19 PM
For me the New Rite can be a great revelation when I listen to the Old and New Testemant and the Gospel, and the Priest in His Homly ties it all in, but before hearing all this we are asked to think about what we have done and "Confess to Almighty God " and then "Gloria". So Iam asked to recognise my errors /mistakes and then praise and Glorify God, so to get my mind set and open to the word of God.
nelly
Somtimes though I do wander and think about aother things.

Nelly, before New Rite, we had the Confiteor (I confess) and Gloria. We all prayed them quietly, although only the priest said the words, and the servers said the responses. In the fifties, the Dialogue Mass was introduced. That was the Tridentine Rite, in Latin, the congregation making the responses in Latin. At school we were taught about the different parts of the Mass. In the school chapel we sang the parts of the Latin Mass that could be sung by laity. In the classroom we learnt the meaning of those sung prayers. There were still some people who said the Rosary or private prayers during Mass. Many of the older people had left school at the age of 12. Despite their lack of education, most were very devout and were well aware what was happening during the consecration. There was always total silence before and after Mass. At the consecration, all heads were bowed in silent adoration.
Keep the Faith!

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nelly k

Yes Rose still the Confitor and Gloria, would it make a diffrence if I was depending on the Priest only to say it, I dont know Rose or respond in Latin agian I dont know.
I know what I have now and it means a great deal to me. nelly
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PJD

Emee:

I do not find it at all easy to run through the matter of sycophantic behaviour. To my memory it was endemic; and in my early days I joined in - as everyone did I suppose.

The best I can do is to say ‘veniality flowing through class’. [just invented that especially for you]

1st, 2nd, 3rd Class Train carriages – that was the way it was. Doff cap. Lick boots. Tough written examinations, even stiffer and class structured oral ones. And almost impossible to move up if you spoke with the wrong accent. And so on.

Nelly:

You got it in one – “a bit of a club”. But if your face didn’t fit, then hard luck.

PJD
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Rose of York
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nelly k
Aug 14 2007, 10:47 PM
Yes Rose still the Confitor and Gloria, would it make a diffrence if I was depending on the Priest only to say it, I dont know Rose or respond in Latin agian I dont know.
I know what I have now and it means a great deal to me. nelly

Nelly, you would have read the Confiteor in English, while the priest said it in Latin. When we had the dialogue Mass, the whole congregation were expected to make the responses in Latin, whether or not they understood it. To give you some idea, imagine yourself in church saying this:

Priest: Kyrie Eleison

Congregation: Kyrie Eleison

Priest: Kyrie Eleison

Congregation: Christe Eleison

Priest: Christe Eleison

Congregation: Christe Eleison

Priest: Kyrie Eleison

Congregation: Kyrie Eleison

Priest: Kyrie Eleison

Now here is the odd bit, Nelly. The Kyrie was said in Greek, not Latin!

Before the dialogue Mass was introduced, the priest would have said his words, as above, and the servers would have said the parts I marked Congregation. Whilst they were doing that you could have read the words in English, praying them while you read. Kyrie Eleison is Greek for Lord, Have mercy. Christe Eleison is Greek for Christ, Have mercy. I clearly remember a lot of people being upset when the parish priest told us all we would have to start responding in Latin (with a bit of Greek for the Kyrie). Our parish was one of few used for a pilot scheme. Some (most, in our parish, in my opinion) preferred to stick to using their books, and prayerfully reading the words in English.
Keep the Faith!

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