Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Appropriate musical instruments for liturgical celbrations
Topic Started: Sunday, 17. June 2007, 17:41 (346 Views)
Derekap
Member Avatar

QV. In my younger days, organs featured very much in Cinemas. Organists played popular music of the day during intervals when usherettes were trying to sell us ice cream. Reginald Dixon was a very popular organist in the Tower Ballroom, Blackpool and on radio - playing popular music. So what do you suggest is a suitable musical instrument for church? I once (1950) attended Holy Mass (Tridentine Rite) in a religious order chapel in Rome which was accompanied by a trio, violin etc., playing such pieces as Ave Maria and Liebestraum. It was a girl's First Holy Communion and a member of the Paparatsi was there to record the event. Hand clapping in church started before V2. You say Holy Mass should normally be in Latin with, perhaps some vernacular. Do you suggest millions of Catholics and Orthodox of various Rites should switch?. When Latin was the vernacular was Holy Mass offered in another language?

I don't think Pope Benedict XVI was insisting ALL Holy Masses should include some Latin.

Just as much as most African and Asian music is strange to us I would not be surprised if Gregorian Chant is not equally strange to Africans and Asians.

Unsularity can be very prevalent among Catholics, I know because I too have suffered from it. I was probably in my twenties before I knew Holy Mass was offered by Catholics in other Rites and later that there were Catholic Priests with wives and children (Maronites).
Derekap
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Quicunque vult

Derekap

To answer your various points:

The cinema organ and pipe organ are quite different instruments, used in different contexts. The Council Fathers said this of the pipe organ in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

Quote:
 
The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendour to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up men's minds to God and higher things.


So far as other instruments are concerned, the document said:

Quote:
 
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, in the judgment and with the consent of the competent territorial authority as laid down in Articles 22: 2, 37 and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use; that they accord with the dignity of the temple, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.


Do the instruments of the popular song, the disco or the pub accord with the dignity of the temple? Do they contribute to the edification (ie spiritual enhancement) of the faithful, as opposed to the provision of entertainment?

With reference to use of Latin, the document favoured preservation of Latin in the Latin rites. There was no thought of imposing Latin on (eg) Eastern rite Catholics.

We'll have to see what more the Holy Father has to say about use of Latin. In Sacramentum Caritatis he recommended the use of Latin for Masses at international gatherings, save for the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful. He went on to suggest that:

Quote:
 
the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.


This suggests that he favours a degree of wider use of Latin in ordinary liturgies as well.

As far as your comment about Africans and Asians is concerned, I would point out that the Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is Cardinal Arinze (from Nigeria) and the Secretary is Archbishop Ranjith (from Sri Lanka). Both are enthusiasts for Gregorian chant, and I suspect would regard any suggestion that Africans and Asians can't cope with this most sublime form of musical worship as not a little patronising.

QV
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Quicunque vult
Jun 17 2007, 09:51 PM
The cinema organ and pipe organ are quite different instruments, used in different contexts.  The Council Fathers said this of the pipe organ in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

Quote:
 
The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendour to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up men's minds to God and higher things.


So far as other instruments are concerned, the document said:

Quote:
 
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, in the judgment and with the consent of the competent territorial authority as laid down in Articles 22: 2, 37 and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use; that they accord with the dignity of the temple, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

Quicunque vult

Quicunque vult
Jun 17 2007, 09:51 PM
The cinema organ and pipe organ are quite different instruments, used in different contexts.  The Council Fathers said this of the pipe organ in Sacrosanctum Concilium:

Quote:
 
The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendour to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up men's minds to God and higher things.


So far as other instruments are concerned, the document said:

Quote:
 
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, in the judgment and with the consent of the competent territorial authority as laid down in Articles 22: 2, 37 and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use; that they accord with the dignity of the temple, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.





Quicunque vult

Do you consider that a low cost electronic organ is suitable for sacred use; that it accords with the dignity of the temple, and that it truly contributes to the edification of the faithful?
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Quicunque vult

Rose

Fortunately the technology has changed, and it is now possible at relatively low cost to reproduce electronically the sound of the pipe organ. The sound is quite different from that of the cinema organ to which Derekap referred.

QV
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Emee
Member Avatar

Well we have an electric guitar once a month in our Church and personally I find the hymns we sing to it VERY spiritual uplifting. :D

I love organ music, but it's nice to have a change once in a while, and as long as it's done with due reverence - which it is in our Church - I can't see the harm in that...

Also we have heard that our new Parish Priest who is coming to join us in September plays the flute, which I think is absolutely wonderful - although I wouldn't imagine he would have the time or the opportunity to play it during Mass...!!
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
CARLO
Member Avatar

In reality it is the way the instruments are played and the standard of the music that matters.

A Spanish guitar, flute or keyboard played well with good material is very uplifting.

On the other hand the scrape of badly tuned acoustic guitars churning out three chord ditties, the cacophony of tambourines or the wail of badly played recorders is sheer torture!

Veritas
Truth


CARLO
Judica me Deus
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
CARLO
Jun 17 2007, 11:30 PM
On the other hand the scrape of badly tuned acoustic guitars churning out three chord ditties, the cacophony of tambourines or the wail of badly played recorders is sheer torture!


So was the organ in my last parish. It was a very good organ, the organist did not know how to play properly. Where I go now, if the organist is not available, one good singer leads us. In a small church, that works well.

I prefer accompaniment by a good guitarist, to that of an organist who cannot even play in tune.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
newminster
Unregistered

The electronic 'burp box', which is probably the best that small and relatively poor parishes can afford, has come a long way in recent years and can now come fairly close to reproducing the sound of a decent pipe organ.
On the other hand there are hymns (Dear Estelle's 'Walk with me ...' comes to mind) that have passages in them which make even the best of organs sound like a fairground steam organ.
As usual, the fault lies with the composer not with the instrument.
As far as guitars are concerned there is one local parish which is well worth going to for its rumbustious guitar playing where the hymns are chosen to suit while a neighbouring one has two guitars, a flute and a violin and everything sounds like a dirge.
And either the leader or the priest (I'm not sure which) on occasion selects hymns that were written for the organ and the result is, shall we say, infelicitous! :rolleyes:
Goto Top
 
tomais

Now why I wonder why John Knox said what he did about the organ?

Why instruments at all other than human voices
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
newminster
Unregistered

Good point, tomais, and we frequently sing without accompaniment at vigil Mass. The leader tends to start a tone low which has most of use reaching into our boots for the bottom note but since I usually struggle to reach the high ones I can't complain.
I do find that whoever 'sets' the hymns for us doesn't seem to realise that there are some modern hymns (some older ones as well but not to the same extent) that are not really ideal for unaccompanied congregational singing. They may be theologically sound and appropriate for the Sunday but they need the discipline of instrumental accompaniment to make sure you come in on the right beat and pause in the right places.
I suspect this is the reason why a lot of 'traditional' hymns are a bit clunky. You just need to hear the first verse and then singing along is easy.
Goto Top
 
CARLO
Member Avatar

tomais
Jun 18 2007, 02:44 PM
Now why I wonder why John Knox said what he did about the organ?

Why instruments at all other than human voices

Tomais

A thoroughly Protestant attitude! :rolleyes:

Mind you Gregorian Chant is very pleasing and disposes of the need for instruments of any sort.

Anything other than the wretched bagpipes! :rofl:

Slainte!

Pax


CARLO
Riding out the monsoon
Judica me Deus
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

I think many Catholics in Oriental, African and Latin American countries would prefer use of their own musical instruments. When I was stationed in India in 1945 the local Cathedral held a Corpus Christi Feast and Procession and during the procession in the streets a groups of Indian men sang their own hymns to the accompaniment of Indian Instruments. I was told by one of the priests, such was not (at that time) allowed within the church. Incidently it was during November, the feast being transferred from the wet to the dry season.

The Coptic Orthodox Church usually uses tambourines and triangles (only) to accompany their chanting.

The last time I attended Holy Mass in the Catholicos's (Leader's) Cathedral of The Armenian Apostolic Church (Orthodox) a few miles from the capital of Armenia I was taken aback because the young lady organist, like all the women members of the choir, was wearing a blue cloak with a hood - just like many pictures of Our Lady.
Derekap
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
newminster
Jun 18 2007, 11:16 AM
On the other hand there are hymns (Dear Estelle's 'Walk with me ...' comes to mind) that have passages in them which make even the best of organs sound like a fairground steam organ.


Come the Revolution, we'll convert the whole of the British population and then we can have glorious former Salvation Army bands in Catholic Churches.

Quote:
 
We are aitch ay ay pee pee y 
Cos we're ess ay vee ee dee  :clap:
We're happy  :clap:
cos we're saved and free  :clap:


When all the muslims have been converted, we can have cantors (so called Ministry of Music) at the top of the minarets, calling the Catholic faithful to prayer.

Ex Methodists can be sent out to small rural parishes to lead the singing. Methodists can really belt out good hymns.

York Minster organ can stay where it is, the building will be returned to its rightful owners.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

Before the invention of pipe organs what musical instrument/instruments is/were used in church?
Derekap
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
newminster
Unregistered

The simple answer is "other types of organ"!
For all we have some reservations about some aspects of its accuracy,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11297a.htm
gives a pretty accurate account of the development of accompaniment to liturgical music.
Originally of course it was simply the human voice and Gregorian Chant still sounds at its best sung that way.
Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Locked Topic