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The Priest-most Important Person In The Parish?; Two tier laity?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 11. October 2006, 23:24 (1,516 Views)
Rose of York
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The priest used to be known as just that:

The parish priest.

His curates were his deputies, responsible to him for helping run the parish and give pastoral care. It was rare to come into personal contact other than:

Social functions, when clergy would go round the room, having brief words with as many parishioners as possible. They would be immaculately dressed, in black suits or cassocks. It was customary to stand in respect when the priest approached the table. He would say "Sit down, please", we would sit, he would chat briefly and move on.

Visits to home at times of illness, or sometimes when families had other worries, or there were children in danger of neglect.

Visits when a priest "did the rounds" of homes, every house getting a short visit. That was the priest's opportunity to aquaint himself with families, and find out if there were any particular needs.

Visits by parishioners to the presbytery, to talk to the priest by appointment. That would be for an impending marriage, or perhaps to introduce someone who wanted to become a Catholic.

Things changed. The priests started "doing the vicar thing", standing at the back of the church after Mass, greeting parishioners. Soon it was "Hello folks. I am your new parish priest, Father Pete." Some abandoned, not only the cassock, but even the clerical collar.

Parish groupies, male and female, absolutely must be seen speaking to Father about something terribly important. Who do those strangers think they are, bothering Father Mike* telling him their names, where they live, why they moved here, how many children they have? Why is that old man holding us up, expecting us to wait while he tells Father about his wife's CTC scan? For goodness sake, we have things to organise.

Has it all gone too far? Have we swung from one extreme to the other?

* Father Mike! I prefer a priest to use his proper name. Michael, not Mike. Better still, Father O'Sullivan, O' anything, Mac anything, but not Mike.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Familiarity breeds contempt.
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Angus Toanimo
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How many of us hear priests talking of 'Cardinal Cormac' - have they no respect for their superiors?

Would one approach the Cardinal and say 'Good afternoon, Cormac' or would they address him as 'Your Eminence'?

My Father once admonished a priest who called himself 'Father Mike' and quite rightly so.

Standards have slipped. Not just in Church but in society too.
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Karin
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This more relaxed style of social interaction is very common here in the States. Even here, our bishop refers to himself as Bishop Jerry Listecki, instead of Bishop Jerald Listecki. Our PP is Father Larry Berger, not Father Lawrence Berger. I'm not sure how long this casual behaviour has been going on, but it's been quite a while now.

Take a look at our politicians. How many of us have respect for them? Not around here after watching the muckraking advertisements for re-election to the Senate or House of Representatives. It's as if they are taking knives to each other's throats! Respect for clergy has also taken a more causal approach as well.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a sign of the times and hopefully things will swing back to where they should be. Unfortunately, it's not just the clergy who are treated so casually. Children go after their parents in the same way. Respect seems to be just another word in the dictionary. :(
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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tomais

OK many will have anticipated this- so here it is,(warts etc).
Respect?
Yes; so come on down,( if your geographical metropolitism will allow you) to Saint Patricks Edinburgh and Cardianl Patrick O'Briens remit.
Maybe elsewhere in Gods own country things may immitate elements of the C of E but not to my knowledge.
I see related courtesies every week even when the Cardianl came here with the new Papal Nuncio,and even I got to punt in a new pence worth- OK it was for the Blessed margaret Sinclair; yes I SPOKE to the Nuncio!
Oh here is a PS of great historical note: Today began the first of the consulations which would lead up to the Union! And should any here think that there was no Catholc input and that this information is " hingin oot tae dry) then you have leanred something.
meanwhile I continue to address all the clergy properly despite much of many of my beliefs.
Wow-that's off the kist then!!!
Tomais in an extension of the Indian summer
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Rose of York
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tomais
Oct 12 2006, 05:06 PM
and even I got to punt in a new pence worth- OK it was for the Blessed margaret Sinclair;

tomais, the Prayer Group of this forum is dedicated to Blessed Margaret Sinclair.

How does one address a Papal Nuncio?

its damp and muggy
Keep the Faith!

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tomais

Hello- followed very rapidly by your emminece and a hands grasp; then his questioning me as to whom I was etc etc- Cardinal keith smiles,(laghed0 and chipped in; albeit Tommt farmer was by my side.
The hierarchy do set the scene to put people at their ease
PUT ME AT MY EASE??????
( Soory Eve shouting)
The hierarchy here set the scene and the pace so that all are at ease; no Hi there Jimmy son- etc.
We dont do that-( in the east-Glasgow-well who can tell?)
he Hierarchy attempt to call in all the congregation and communicate.
Toamis- yes it's very pleasant tonight and we are off to our neighbours fresh back from France and John a well kent church reader her in the capital.
Warm regards all round
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Rose of York
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After the vigil Mass on Saturday I asked the pp if we could have a quiet chat, out of earshot of other parishioners. We discussed, amicably, a decision about which I was not happy. The priest assured me I had received incorrect information. Evidently a priest three or four back had allowed a woman too much free rein. He lived in another parish, so he had allowed this woman to arrange for minor repairs to be done, to receive and sign for deliveries, and take on a few other small responsibilities. Bit by bit she took on more, deciding for herself what she would do and what would be referred to the priest. The next priest had a rather weak personality and allowed the situation to escalate. The lay woman would tell the priest what time the Christmas Mass should be celebrated, on the grounds that she knows the people. He allowed it. The next priest had three churches, and found these sort of goings on in all three, he could not cope and just resigned himself to the situation.

Along came pastoral reorganisation, and we got a strong parish priest. For months he tried to deal with the situation tactfully, to no avail. It turns out the priest was advised about the way WE do the Offertory Procession was to be done. The priest was overruled when choosing hymns during the organists one month absence. The priest rearranged some seating, she put it back because she "has been here a long time, there have been over a dozen parish priests in my time, I knowhy things are where they are." Recently she tried making decisions about building alterations, and told the parishioners what was going to be done.

Following my conservation with the parish priest, I now know that we have a strong man, who has told a certain person that he and he alone is responsible to the Diocesan Trust for parish land and properties, he has a parish pastoral council, he listens to their guidance, and comes to a decision. He, the parish priest, is authorised to spend money up to a certain amount.

I told the priest, I feel the clergy are losing their status. He looked at me sadly and said "we lost it twenty years ago, thanks to the bishops encouraging lay involvement, without making it clear to the laity that they cannot take complete charge of us".

Does my (true) tale give a clue about the massive drop in vocations to Diocesan priesthood?
Keep the Faith!

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Joseph

Rose of York
Oct 23 2006, 07:38 PM
...I told the priest, I feel the clergy are losing their status.  He looked at me sadly and said "we lost it twenty years ago, thanks to the bishops encouraging lay involvement, without making it clear to the laity that they cannot take complete charge of us".

Does my (true) tale give a clue about the massive drop in vocations to Diocesan  priesthood?

Nothing new to us all in that Rose, is there?

The key question is, who is doing what about it?

And if the answer is no-one.... :-(
Joseph
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Rose of York
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Joseph
Oct 23 2006, 09:40 PM


The key question is, who is doing what about it?

And if the answer is no-one.... :-(

The busy bodies are doing something about it. The situation seems to escalate year by year. I am all for openness with financial matters, that protects clergy from gossip and suspicion, but ruling the priest? Imagine the mayjem if a health centre had a committee of patients telling the doctors how to treat patients, what equipment they need, which medication they could prescribe, and how many staff they should have.

High time we restored our parish priests to their rightful status, and at the same time the bishops should insist the clergy uphold the dignity of the priesthood and diaconate.
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Sounds as if there are a lot of green cardigans running amok. Most of them don't understand the word "no", do they? Here, our parish priest chooses the hymns, according to the readings. He makes "suggestions" to the choir and they choose from what he gives them. It works out very well and no one has hurt feelings. Father Larry always has the final say for everything in the parish, as he, not the councils, is the leader. But I am aware of parishes where everything seems to be run by committee and the priest just goes along to get along. Very sad...very sad.
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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maklavan

Karin
Oct 24 2006, 12:30 AM
Sounds as if there are a lot of green cardigans running amok. Most of them don't understand the word "no", do they? Here, our parish priest chooses the hymns, according to the readings. He makes "suggestions" to the choir and they choose from what he gives them. It works out very well and no one has hurt feelings. Father Larry always has the final say for everything in the parish, as he, not the councils, is the leader. But I am aware of parishes where everything seems to be run by committee and the priest just goes along to get along. Very sad...very sad.

Is this superman an expert on the liturgy and Curch music? If there are lay people in the parish who are more qualified than he is, does he consult them? A good solution might be a liturical grioup who meet informaklly every quarter and work out a programme for the coming weeks. the days when the priests thought they were Divinely appointed to run the alter servers, choir, money counting, bingo, Christmas fayre annual dinner, parish accounts, Confirmation class, renovations, etc are long past. The priest exists to proclaim the Word and dispense the Sacraments. settin him on a pedestal or making him into a demi-god sets him up for a fall, as lots of American Catholics have discovered lately.
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Rose of York
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maklavan
Oct 26 2006, 08:48 AM
Is this superman an expert on the liturgy and Curch music? If there are lay people in the parish who are more qualified than he is, does he consult them? A good solution might be a liturical grioup who meet informaklly every quarter and work out a programme for the coming weeks. the days when the priests thought they were Divinely appointed to run the alter servers, choir, money counting, bingo, Christmas fayre annual dinner, parish accounts, Confirmation class, renovations, etc are long past. The priest exists to proclaim the Word and dispense the Sacraments. settin him on a pedestal or making him into a demi-god sets him up for a fall, as lots of American Catholics have discovered lately.

Mak my doctor is an expert on medicine, and I hope my priest is an expert on liturgy. Consultation with laity is one thing. Laity taking control of worship is another.

As for the other tasks you mention, finance, social life, fund raising, building maintenance, I am the first to beef about priests dabbling in secular jobs. However, the people who do fill those roles are answerable to management.

I see a difference between giving a parish priest his rightful role, and putting him on a pedestal.
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Dearest Maklavan, our parish priest is doing his job, not being singled out to be put on a pedestal or be a demi-god. We certainly have enough laity doing their own little tasks in the parish, enough groups and councils which have been there for yonks and an extremely active parish life, but when it comes to final decisions which affect the entire parish, then our parish priest has the last say - it's his job. And if you had read my post a bit more carefully, you would have seen our parish priest gives our choir a choice of what to sing, as directed by the readings for the day. This is his responsibility as our parish priest and everyone is happy he takes his responsibility as he should, as our pastor.

And yes, Rose, I guess you could say Father has a "secular" job, too....but would teaching at the Catholic university be a "secular" job? Many of the priests here in La Crosse do teach, either at Viterbo or at the Catholic high school. And they make great professors! Their classes are packed!
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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Karin
Oct, 12:09 PM
And yes, Rose, I guess you could say Father has a "secular" job, too....but would teaching at the Catholic university be a "secular" job?

Rose of York
Oct, 10:53 AM
I am the first to beef about priests dabbling in secular jobs. 

Karin:

You and I are on the same wavelength on this issue. By "dabbling" I meant priests in parishes, doing secular jobs for which they are ill equipped, or allocating tasks to parishioners, solely on the basis of their willingness to be parish workers. A classic example is the one I mentioned on the old forum, of a priest who wanted a volunteer to do a particular job. He turned down my offer on the grounds that he needed "somebody who knows what they are doing", and promptly gave it to somebody who did not know what he was doing - just happened to be the guy who does everything. That decision cost the parish thousands.

Maklavan:

If a priest needs to call on a lay liturgical expert, why did he waste time going to seminary?
Keep the Faith!

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