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Pope's Visit To Latin America - May 2007; What can he expect to find there?
Topic Started: Saturday, 28. April 2007, 23:13 (968 Views)
Gerard

Joseph,

As Rose has pointed out I am a Pentecostal Catholic and not an impartial observer. I am involved.

Quote:
 
But there’s more: the spirit of Pentacostalism is also drawing a growing number of followers among Catholics who are remaining members of their Church. The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, in a detailed survey conducted in 2006, found that this tendency can be ascribed to one out of every three Catholics in Brazil. This tendency to a large extent opposes the pressure of secularization and aligns itself with a form of Christianity that is puritanical, communitarian, taking its inspiration from above; a defender of life and the family, active on the public stage, and displaying a strong missionary spirit.


I decided to comment because that paragraph presents a work of God as something negative. The preceding paragraphs are a litany of failures, pessimism and bad news. He then says "and there is more"...so presumably more bad news. The "more" is "the spirit of Pentecostalism is also drawing a growing number of followers among Catholics who are remaining members of their church"

So (to link this with another thread) the author is coming very close to "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" here. The Spirit of Pentecostalism is The Holy Spirit, and to present a work of the Holy Spirit keeping Catholics within the Catholic Church as something negative is outrageous.

I would like to jump to one of your own paragraphs:

Quote:
 
It seems to me that those Catholics, referred to in this thread as seeking an outlet in the Pentecostal type approach, are looking for a more tangible group-involvement in worshiping the Lord. They are attracted and uplifted by the Gospel Singing type of service in which they can let themselves go in a group of like-minded individuals, and come away feeling uplifted by the experience. Currently there is a lot of objection to this sort of thing being part of the Mass - but maybe it doesn’t need to be. Could the Catholic Church approve services of such a style separate from the Mass, for those who want them?


Let's consider the last sentence there. Actually the Catholic Church fully approves of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I could quote you reams of approving words from Popes; Paul VI, JPII and Benedict and link you to interminable websites showing Vatican support but instead I will tell you that last year Pope Benedict called the Charismatic and new movements to Rome to celebrate Pentecost with him. 400,000 People turned up (I went with my family) and spent the day in worship and praise and finishing with the Mass of Pentecost. And yesterday (Saturday) I went to Westminster Cathedral where Cardinal Cormack Murphy O'Connor concelebrated a Charismatic Mass with two Bishops and a dozen priests. The Mass lasted an hour and a half and the liturgy police would not have liked it. 2,000 Pentecostal Catholics present loved it.

As for services outwith Mass, Charismatics hold prayer meetings during the week. Such things dont need aproval. We find that prayer meetings make the Mass more meaningful and Mass makes the prayer meetings more meaningful.

Quote:
 
It seems to me that those Catholics, referred to in this thread as seeking an outlet in the Pentecostal type approach, are looking for a more tangible group-involvement in worshiping the Lord. They are attracted and uplifted by the Gospel Singing type of service in which they can let themselves go in a group of like-minded individuals, and come away feeling uplifted by the experience.


Joseph, this seems to me to be a sympathetic attempt to understand Pentecostals. I appreciate that this is what you see when looking in from the outside. However, this is not what Pentecostalism is about. Joyful praise is there but it comes out of something else, something much deeper. Pentecostalism is about a spiritual experience - a Pentecostal experience of The Holy Spirit. This experience brings a "living, real Jesus", to use the words of Pope Benedict that you quoted above yourself:


Quote:
 
But as pope, last February 17, he instead called upon the Church to examine itself.

If so many faithful are abandoning this and going to the Penetecostal communities – a phenomenon also found on a wide scale in Africa, Asia, and North America – it is because they are thirsty for a living, real Jesus whom the Church proclaims too feebly.


So, yes, the answer is the same here as in Brazil. Pentecostal Christianity is the fastest growing Christianity in the World. This Revival started in 1906 and has grown exponentially since then and now accounts for 1 in 4 Christians world wide. The Bishops in Brazil realised some time ago that Catholic Charismatic Renewal was the answer to the protestant encroachment and invited CCR into the country to help them. As I have shown above. It is welcomed and valued by the Hierarchy.

Unfortunately, as you will probably find out, it is not welcomed by many on this forum. Therefore I do not propose to engage in debate. Should you wish to engage me in private messages that will be fine Joseph.

Gerry :D :clap:
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
May 6 2007, 09:31 PM


Unfortunately, as you will probably find out, it is not welcomed by many on this forum. Therefore I do not propose to engage in debate. Should you wish to engage me in private messages that will be fine Joseph.

Gerry :D :clap:

Gerry, you are a Catholic. Late Popes encouraged CCR. Pope Benedict has shown his approval.

I, personally, have indicated in the past that I have misgivings about certain incidents I witnessed. That does not mean I am totally against Charismatic Renewal. I have "mixed feelings" about the movement.

If you want to engage in debate on this forum, about Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and/or Pentecostalism, please do.
Keep the Faith!

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Joseph

Derekap
May 6 2007, 05:51 PM
...Is there perhaps a possibility that our clergy have in some cases allied themselves too closely with wealthy and powerful individuals and even given the impresion they support those who are downtreading the poorer communities?

I don't think so Derek, not from my limited experience in Brazil anyway. The impression I gained was that whilst almost everyone you met considered themselves to Catholic, the very wealthy ones only attended church for the big occasions in their lives - Baptisms, Weddings, and Funerals, etc, and many of them not even at Christmas or Easter.

The poorer people flocked there, and those in the middle behaved very much as we do (mixed). But, particularly amongst the poorer people, there was also a great interest in (and a fear of) what they call in Africa the tocalosh (?spelling?). I know little about it so I can't offer details. The Mass in poorer parishes certainly seemed to offer more rousing Gospel-Type singing, but those in well-to-do districts offered a fair share of it too.

Joseph
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Joseph

Thanks for reply Gerry.

As soon as I had posted my previous message to you I noticed your Sig,
and realised that you apparently have a sort of vested interest in the topic.

Gerard
May 6 2007, 09:31 PM
Joseph,
As Rose has pointed out I am a Pentecostal Catholic and not an impartial observer. I am involved.

So I was correct. :)

Gerard
May 6 2007, 09:31 PM
...I decided to comment because that paragraph presents a work of God as something negative. The preceding paragraphs are a litany of failures, pessimism and bad news. He then says "and there is more"...so presumably more bad news. The "more" is "the spirit of Pentecostalism is also drawing a growing number of followers among Catholics who are remaining members of their church"

So (to link this with another thread) the author is coming very close to "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" here. The Spirit of Pentecostalism is The Holy Spirit, and to present a work of the Holy Spirit keeping Catholics within the Catholic Church as something negative is outrageous.

I could understand 'The Spirit of Penticost' as being The Holy Spirit, but 'Penticostalism' I'm not sure about - I rarely trust 'isms' :(

Gerard
May 6 2007, 09:31 PM
...The Bishops in Brazil realised some time ago that Catholic Charismatic Renewal was the answer to the protestant encroachment and invited CCR into the country to help them. As I have shown above. It is welcomed and valued by the Hierarchy.

So the Pope's solution to the problems out there could be very interesting then? We'll have to watch them very closely.

Gerard
May 6 2007, 09:31 PM
Unfortunately, as you will probably find out, it is not welcomed by many on this forum. Therefore I do not propose to engage in debate. Should you wish to engage me in private messages that will be fine Joseph.

No private messages on this one Gerry, thanks. I like to keep everything in the open on these forums as much as possible, but from what you say it looks like we shall all be eager to discuss the faith in your terms if Pope Benedict XVI plays ball like you suspect he may. :D

Joseph
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Timothy
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Pope to Visit Brazil While Evangelicals Keep on Growing

Catholic decline stabilizing in Brazil


The Pope is arriving in Brazil tomorrow (May 9th) for a six day trip, where he will meet with the Brazilian Bishops as well as canonize Antônio Galvão, who will be the first Brazilian saint.

There is a rather amusing song they have made for His Holiness (you can access it from the first link.) Not too sure about the "powerpoint" style video, but if Brazil were in Europe they should have entered it for the Eurovision, I'm sure it would have won!

Is the suppression of Liberation Theology to blame for the decline of Catholicism in Brazil, from over 82% to 73% in less than two decades?

Pope's Itinerary for the trip
"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty."
"Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism."
Pope Benedict XVI
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Derekap
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I think the specially composed song is a light-hearted, but sincere welcome for His Holiness. The words, summarised on the same website are very appropriate. It is a pity we hadn't something similar when Pope John Paul II visited this country. It keeps repeating: "God is Love" - in Portuguese of course.
Derekap
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Timothy
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Quote:
 
It keeps repeating: "God is Love" - in Portuguese of course.


It's nice to see that they read his encyclical!

France 24 - Pope speaks out on family issues as he arrives in Brazil

From watching the news tonight the media seem to have picked up on comments the Pope made in regard to Mexico where two weeks ago Abortion was legalised. Here he supports a statement by Mexican Bishops who declared that politicians who supported the legalisation of Abortion were excommunicated;

Quote:
 
"It is written in the (canon) law that murdering a child is incompatible with communion, and the bishops have done nothing arbitrary. They have only put the spotlight on what is allowed by Church law."

Pope Benedict XVI


There is nothing in this new, but sound Catholic teaching! I can't see why there has been a fuss made up about it.

BBC - Brazil's first Saint

And If you ever needed proof of the BBC compiling a typical biased article on the Pope, both John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, then this really was your proof. Read with caution!

"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty."
"Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism."
Pope Benedict XVI
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Eve
Former Admin/Moderator
Joseph
Apr 29 2007, 11:15 PM
Looking again at some of those figures, they are quite striking aren't they?

Catholics in Brazil:-
1980, 89%
2000, 74& 
2007, 60%

Pentacostalist Protestants:-
1980, 5%
2007, 15%
Urban 20%

Independent Catholic News
 
LONDON - 9 May 2007 - 165 words

Brazil: some church statistics

As Pope Benedict begins his apostolic trip to Brazil, from May 9 to 14, tiday, the Church there has released the following statistics, last collated on December 31, 2005.

Brazil has a population of 184,180 million, of whom 155,628 million (84.5 percent) are Catholic. There are 269 ecclesiastical circumscriptions, 9,504 parishes and 36,729 pastoral centres of other kinds. Currently there are 427 bishops, 18,087 diocesan and regular priests, 2,676 male religious, 33,765 female religious, 2,015 lay members of secular institutes, 72,704 lay missionaries and 492,370 catechists. Minor seminarians number 3,858, and major seminarians 9,450.

A total of 2,472,348 children and young people attend 6,073 centres of Catholic education, from kindergartens to universities. Other charitable and social institutions belonging to the Church, or run by priests or religious in Brazil include 366 hospitals, 1,013 clinics, 764 homes for the elderly or disabled, 1,942 orphanages and nurseries, 2,159 family counselling centres and other pro-life centres, and 2,830 centres for education and social rehabilitation.

Source: VIS


These figures:

Catholics in Brazil 84.5%
are official from the Vatican
Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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Gerard

Eve,

Phew, thats a relief.

For a moment there I thought The Church was haemorrhaging its poorest members to Evangelical Churches who offered them social fellowship, financial help and inculturated worship.

But it turns out there was nothing to worry about at all. 84.5% Of the population are solidly Catholic, and the worries seem to have been based on biased statistics from unreliable sources.

Gerry ;)

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Timothy
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Quote:
 
These figures:

Catholics in Brazil 84.5%
are official from the Vatican


It's been widely quoted that there is a Catholic population of 125m in Brazil, if that figure is correct in a nation of 184m people, that would put the Catholic population to be roughly 67% or so.

There is no way that 84% of Brazilians are Catholic, if so why has the Church said that dwindling number are there most pressing concern in the country?
"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty."
"Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism."
Pope Benedict XVI
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Timothy
Member Avatar

Posted Image

Pope Benedict XVI has canonised Brazil's first saint.
"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty."
"Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism."
Pope Benedict XVI
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PJD


Timothy asks whether there is any connection with the suppression of liberation theology. Well I think for me there might be; albeit rather obscure/indirect - as even to think myself imagining things.

What interested me was that the recent comments made by the Vatican on liberation theology/theologians were then followed up (apparently without connection) by Pope Benedict’s interest in the early Church Fathers and in particular his brief reference to the reading of Origen [b.ad185, a brilliant theologian, holy pastor, teacher of biblical interpretation with special concentration on ‘allegorism’, blamed for much he never dogmatised, but sadly was never canonized].

Interestingly also, the Anglican theologian Keiffer made much in the 1999 Project Canterbury of the writings of the famous 19th Century Anglican John Keble; who amassed considerable evidence in support of the allegoral method used by many of the early Church Fathers in reference to explaining the Scriptures. Keble would almost certainly have studied Origen.

But, as soon as you touch upon Origen, you are led directly to Origenism and the 2nd Council of Constantinople ad553 and its anathemas against the ‘three chapters’ [Clare will probably know more about this detail than me (smile)].

What has all this, if anything, to do with South America?

Don’t know exactly – but perhaps it’s geared up in one way or another to give western theologians a warning against academic complacency. In other words it is not Pentecostolists/ism that the Vatican sees as the danger (how could they be if they follow the Spirit), but fear of a new form of the old Origenisms - heresies post Origen - which preceded the calling of the Council of Constantinople e.g. questions on the Trinity and other matters such as Apocatastasis [eternity of the damned], and the human and Divine natures of Christ etc.

You see, if you go too far in certain matters, you end up with everyone doing what they like because everyone is destined to go to Heaven. That is the danger as I see it. I may well be wrong; as I inferred – an over fertile imagination.

So much for a contributional guess in response to just one question from Timothy!

PJD

[I agree absolutely with Rose – Gerry’s contributions are invaluable here]
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pete

EWTN have very good coverage of the Popes visit, well worth watching.
Pete
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Joseph

Eve
May 10 2007, 01:26 PM
Joseph
Apr 29 2007, 11:15 PM
Looking again at some of those figures, they are quite striking aren't they?

Catholics in Brazil:-
1980, 89%
2000, 74% 
2007, 60%

Pentacostalist Protestants:-
1980, 5%
2007, 15%
Urban 20%

Independent Catholic News
 
LONDON - 9 May 2007 - 165 words

Brazil: some church statistics

As Pope Benedict begins his apostolic trip to Brazil, from May 9 to 14, tiday, the Church there has released the following statistics, last collated on December 31, 2005.

Brazil has a population of 184,180 million, of whom 155,628 million (84.5 percent) are Catholic. There are 269 ecclesiastical circumscriptions, 9,504 parishes and 36,729 pastoral centres of other kinds. Currently there are 427 bishops, 18,087 diocesan and regular priests, 2,676 male religious, 33,765 female religious, 2,015 lay members of secular institutes, 72,704 lay missionaries and 492,370 catechists. Minor seminarians number 3,858, and major seminarians 9,450.

A total of 2,472,348 children and young people attend 6,073 centres of Catholic education, from kindergartens to universities. Other charitable and social institutions belonging to the Church, or run by priests or religious in Brazil include 366 hospitals, 1,013 clinics, 764 homes for the elderly or disabled, 1,942 orphanages and nurseries, 2,159 family counselling centres and other pro-life centres, and 2,830 centres for education and social rehabilitation.

Source: VIS


These figures:

Catholics in Brazil 84.5%
are official from the Vatican

Eve, am I missing something here, or does not the figure of 84.5% you emphasise relate to the year 2005, as opposed to the estimated figure of 60% given above being for 2007?

I agree that your figure may cast some doubt on the 74% quoted of year 2000, but there seems little doubt about the trend anyway - and it certainly leaves no room for complacencey, as the Pope's concern clearly demonstrates.
Joseph
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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 19 2007, 12:32 AM
Eve
May 10 2007, 01:26 PM


These figures:

Catholics in Brazil  84.5%
are official from the Vatican

Eve, am I missing something here, or does not the figure of 84.5% you emphasise relate to the year 2005, as opposed to the estimated figure of 60% given above being for 2007?

Who did the estimating for 2007? I am inclined to attach more credence to Vatican figures than those from unofficial sources. Its a bit early in the year to collate statistics from every parish in a large country.
Keep the Faith!

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