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| Pope's Visit To Latin America - May 2007; What can he expect to find there? | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 28. April 2007, 23:13 (965 Views) | |
| Joseph | Saturday, 28. April 2007, 23:13 Post #1 |
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Benedict XVI's First Visit to Latin America Many are waiting for the pope finally to speak to the five hundred million Catholics on the continent, who until now have felt that he has ignored them. In Aparecida, the possible beginning of the pontificate's second phase by Sandro Magister This fascinating article, from www.Chiesa, gives us some idea what Pope Benedict XVI may face on this important visit. Judging by its content, he will certainly need our prayers. Here are some extracts:-
Link to full artcle:- http://tinyurl.com/2j9u4c I hope this picture is overly pessimistic. It certainly doesn't represent the impressions I and my family gained there in the late 80's. But things can change a lot in the Catholic Church in a relatively short time, as we know from our own experience here in UK. |
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Joseph | |
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| Joseph | Sunday, 29. April 2007, 23:15 Post #2 |
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Looking again at some of those figures, they are quite striking aren't they? Catholics in Brazil:- 1980, 89% 2000, 74& 2007, 60% Pentacostalist Protestants:- 1980, 5% 2007, 15% Urban 20% It is estimated that now, one out of every three Catholics in Brazil is attracted to 'the spirit of Pentacostalism' whilst remaining members of the Church - aligning themselves with a form of Christianity that is claimed to be puritanical, communitarian, taking its inspiration from above; a defender of life and the family, active on the public stage, and displaying a strong missionary spirit. Didn't Pope John Paul II, on his visit, give some public warnings to the Bishops of Brazil concerning this drifting away of the Catholic Church? It is obviously still happening, and it looks like Pope Benedict XVI will have to reinforce those warnings if he is to attempt to help them halt the drift. |
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Joseph | |
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| nelly k | Monday, 30. April 2007, 00:19 Post #3 |
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Why do people make the chioce to move away? this needs to be asked of those that do../ no point in continually blaming the Clergy, people now make choices, nelly |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 30. April 2007, 00:33 Post #4 |
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Administrator
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A doctor who spots a haemorrage does all he or she can to identify and eradicate the cause. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| nelly k | Monday, 30. April 2007, 09:32 Post #5 |
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Point taken Rose, I just think that now there are so many pet theories and religions of sorts, people take it upon themseleves to move... they dont t like the dicipline and all measure of other things I really think there toiling, however I think its us as well that need to show what our faith gives, but then witnessing is seen as Protestant, not sure if that last comment is correct. nelly |
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| Joseph | Monday, 30. April 2007, 10:59 Post #6 |
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Yes Nelly, I'm sure your point is a valid and relevent in this instance too. I understand that Protestant Evangelicals, being alert to the apparent weakness in the following their faith by so many cradle Catholics in countries such as Brazil, have made a concerted effort with missionary zeal to attract them and give them what they think they need - and it seems be working, at the expense of Catholicism. Pope John Paul II's 'wake-up call' message doesn't seem to have got through yet, and the longer it takes the more difficult it will be to recover. I also believe there are lessons in this for us all to learn. Complacenecy seems to be at the root of the problem, and the Catholic Church (and that includes US) needs to find a more successful way of getting its message accross, first of all to enthuse its existing followers and consquently to attract others to the fold - but how do we do that? |
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Joseph | |
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| Joseph | Saturday, 5. May 2007, 12:39 Post #7 |
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Today's Telegraph expands a little more on some of the problems the Pope faces in Brazil:-
Link to full article:- http://tinyurl.com/22hngx Considering Pope Benedict's views on 'Modern variations of the Liturgy' he seems to be facing quite a dilema in Brazil. May God help him to inspire a significant difference in that wonderful country, and lead its people to return in abundance to 'The One True Faith' they once held. |
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Joseph | |
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| Joseph | Saturday, 5. May 2007, 12:48 Post #8 |
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I wonder how this will go down with Pope Benedict?
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Joseph | |
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| Joseph | Saturday, 5. May 2007, 18:59 Post #9 |
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Just to keep these together, here is the Special Coverage of the visit offered by EWTN - which I'm sure we all now have access to
:) PAPAL VISIT TO BRAZIL http://www.ewtn.com/brazil07/index.asp SPECIAL: POPE BENEDICT XVI IN BRAZIL ARRIVAL AND WELCOMING CEREMONY (150:00) Wednesday May 9, 2007 8.30 PM Thursday May 10, 2007 2:00 AM Encore MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL (150:00) Thursday May 10, 2007 3:00 PM MEETING WITH YOUTH (180:00) Thursday May 10, 2007 10:00 PM MASS WITH CANONIZATION FROM CAMPO DE MARTE (240:00) Friday May 11, 2007 1:00 PM MEETING WITH BISHOPS OF BRAZIL AT SAO PAULO CATHEDRAL (180:00) Friday May 11, 2007 8:00 PM Specials schedule is subject to change without notice. All times UK Western. ~ You may need to tape some of them, unless you really are a night-owl! :) (Also copied to the EWTN thread) |
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Joseph | |
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| Gerard | Saturday, 5. May 2007, 20:42 Post #10 |
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Joseph,
That paragraph comes at the end of the article quoted in your first post on this thread. What do you think this paragraph is actually saying ? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Joseph | Saturday, 5. May 2007, 23:13 Post #11 |
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Good question Gerry. Perhaps it is answered to some extent in the full article:- http://tinyurl.com/2j9u4c Especially in the final paragraphs which state:-
It can easily be seen how this serious situation gives rise to feelings of being 'hot under the collar' isn't it? The huge questions are, can the Catholic Church satisfy the increasing demands of Catholic Brazilians (and of similar minded people in other continents)? Or is their current disenchantment only a passing phase? |
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Joseph | |
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| Joseph | Sunday, 6. May 2007, 11:40 Post #12 |
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Thinking a little more about this Gerry, after listening to today's Homily about 'the Church being the people', I wonder if part of the problem lies in the 'dumbed-down' version of the Mass we have now? Previously the Holy Mass had a much more significant aura about it, which lent itself to a greater sense of spiritual fulfilment in those attending - it was 'special' and a very different from the experiences of our routine day-to-day existence. Its Mystery was profound, and there to be experienced in all its glory by everyone - and although gathered together in the one church individuals could, and did, have their own way of 'losing themselves' in this glorious experience of worshiping God, and yet were still all together, along with the priest, facing the Blessed Sacrament and the Cross of Christ throughout the ceremony. With the ‘modern Mass’ much of this experience and reverence tends to be lost, and to a large extent the Mystery of the Eucharist is much less apparent. Today almost everyone receives Holy Communion as a matter of course - whereas previously this was a special privilege open only to those considered to be in a ‘state of grace’. (I know, it’s still the case now, but it would take a complete new thread to analyse that). The consequence is that in my opinion familiarity is breeding contempt here, and that Mass and Holy Communion are not being valued as they once were. We now demand Holy Communion at every possible opportunity, and any form of worship that doesn’t include it is seen as being deficient. We are missing out on opportunities to worship together in so many other ways, ways which can bring congregations together, and which reserve and value the uniqueness of Holy Mass and Communion as the high point of our faith. It seems to me that those Catholics, referred to in this thread as seeking an outlet in the Pentecostal type approach, are looking for a more tangible group-involvement in worshiping the Lord. They are attracted and uplifted by the Gospel Singing type of service in which they can let themselves go in a group of like-minded individuals, and come away feeling uplifted by the experience. Currently there is a lot of objection to this sort of thing being part of the Mass - but maybe it doesn’t need to be. Could the Catholic Church approve services of such a style separate from the Mass, for those who want them? There are all sorts of possibilities, but it seems clear that something needs to be done, and quickly, to stem the tide of genuine believers seeking an outlet for the faith elsewhere. It is interesting to compare the above 'believers' problem with that of the West, where fading belief seems to be the main concern. Could it be possible that the same or similar solutions would meet both needs, I wonder? Any more thoughts on this? |
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Joseph | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 6. May 2007, 12:32 Post #13 |
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Joseph Thanks. I will eply but it will take me some time. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 6. May 2007, 17:51 Post #14 |
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Joseph. Looking back to my experience of the heydays of The Tridentine Holy Mass, the attendance at High or Sung Holy Masses on ordinary Sundays was usually less than the attendance at Low Holy Masses. Of course in those days one had to fast (even from water hence discussions whether cleaning teeth broke the fast) from Midnight to receive Holy Communion and as ceremonial Holy Masses were usually about 11.00am there was a strong incentive to attend earlier Holy Masses. I have never visited Brazil so obviously I can't say exactly whether the same applied. It was only towards the switch over that Dialogue Masses and hymn singing were introduced. Is there perhaps a possibility that our clergy have in some cases allied themselves too closely with wealthy and powerful individuals and even given the impresion they support those who are downtreading the poorer communities? |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 6. May 2007, 18:01 Post #15 |
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What a fascinating new angle, Derek. I am very keen to see Gerry's posts on this subject. He is, as most of us know, very keen on matters concerning Pentecostalism, and Catholic Charismatic Renewal. We will no doubt have a good discssion on the situation in South America. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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3:44 PM Jul 11