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Gospel Puzzles?; [Revised Catholic Edition]
Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. April 2007, 22:25 (1,413 Views)
Rose of York
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Mairtin, several times, moderators have asked that posts address issues rather than the attitudes, beliefs, and practices of individuals members.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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If any of you want to read the quotes from City of God by St Augustine, and Providentissimus Deus by Leop XIII, in context, they can be accessed via the forum reference library.

http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/7282267/1/#new

http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/7282266/1/#new
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

"For perhaps the world keeps its central place by the same law that attracts to its center all heavy bodies. (City of God, Bk XIII, Ch 18)"

This speaks of gravity; which as far as I know all bodies possess - at different levels of course, but each acts its force on each and every other. Surely the central place for all would remain the same? So I do not see the above quote being in conflict with science.

In any case he says 'perhaps'.

PJD
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Gerard

The sun is "the central place" of the solar system. Its gravitaional pull will eventually drag the earth and other planets into itself.

The "central place" of the Universe is neither the earth nor the sun. It is the place where the big bang happened - and all matter is moving away from it as the explosion "continues" (as the universe expands outward from its central point).

However, I'd be happy to suggest that the earth is the spiritual centre of the Universe.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 10:40
P.S. The Scripture quotes in Clare's post above are all taken out of context. They come from a Fundamentalist website...
Gerry,

Those scripture quotes were "taken out of context" by St Augustine, in case you hadn't noticed.

Gerry
 
whic, though claiming to be Catholic says things like this:

Quote:
 
We must also remember that the Scriptures were dictated to the sacred writers by the Holy Ghost.


Which, of course, is not the Catholic teaching.


Gerry, it is Catholic teaching.

Pope Leo XIII
Providentissimus Deus
For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican. These are the words of the last: "The Books of the Old and New Testament, whole and entire, with all their parts, as enumerated in the decree of the same Council (Trent) and in the ancient Latin Vulgate, are to be received as sacred and canonical. And the Church holds them as sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author."(57) Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write-He was so present to them-that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture. Such has always been the persuasion of the Fathers. "Therefore," says St. Augustine, "since they wrote the things which He showed and uttered to them, it cannot be pretended that He is not the writer; for His members executed what their Head dictated."(58) And St. Gregory the Great thus pronounces: "Most superfluous it is to inquire who wrote these things-we loyally believe the Holy Ghost to be the Author of the book. He wrote it Who dictated it for writing; He wrote it Who inspired its execution."


So how you can maintain that it is not Catholic teaching, Gerry, I cannot fathom. Even St Augustine would appear to agree with Scripture Catholic "that the Scriptures were dictated to the sacred writers by the Holy Ghost."

It is Catholic teaching.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Mairtin
Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 19:36
In regard to geocentrism, Augustine was simply going along with the accepted scientific opinion of his day - in so far as the term 'scientific' can be applied to those days.
Same as you and Gerry then, Mairtin.

Quote:
 
She usually tries to get off the hook by blaming the successors of Pope Pius X for everything, I'm waiting patiently for her justification of why she rejects the words of Pope Leo XII


I don't reject them. I just don't take the passage out of context as you did, and ignore everything else in the encyclical.

No one seems to want to acknowledge that St Augustine (as quoted by Leo XIII in that very encyclical) said that if science and Scripture contradict, and are irreconcilable, then we must not hesitate to reject the "science".
Edited by Clare, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 14:43.
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Gerard

Because we think he said the opposite.

I have quoted the same passage twice which I think says the opposite. I see no point in posting the same quote for the third time.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Clare,

The Church has developed its understanding of Scripture further since 1893. Dei Verbum and subsequent teaching says that the human authors "are real authors".

This means they are not secretaries writing down whats dictated but are expressing their understanding and their interaction with God. It (Dei Verbum) goes on to expand on the use of human beings and human language all of which you conveniently ignore in the above discussions. Thus the human author says in human language "the sun rises in the east moves through the sky and sets in the west" and you take that as a science lesson from a time when there was no science. You prefer this to the obvious interpretation that the Bible speaks in human language about things experienced by onrdinary people everyday.

I will not now get into a discussion about the authority of the 1893 document. I consider an encyclical from a Pope of lower authority than a Dogmatic Constitution from an Ecumenical Council in unity with a Pope. I also consider that teaching develops. And in this particular example both confirm each other.

Those who insist on over literal interpretations justified by claiming the Bible was dictated are fundamentalists who are departing from Catholic teaching.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:14.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Thursday, 5. August 2010, 15:53
Because we think he said the opposite.

I have quoted the same passage twice which I think says the opposite. I see no point in posting the same quote for the third time.
I'm sure I had this argument before with Mairtin somewhere.

It depends on what you think the "so" refers to.
Quote:
 
"Whatever they can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures; and whatever they assert in their treatises which is contrary to these Scriptures of ours, that is to Catholic faith, we must either prove it as well as we can to be entirely false, or at all events we must, without the smallest hesitation, believe it to be so."


Perhaps you can explain to me, how on earth St Augustine could possibly have been saying that we must not hesitate to believe these assertions, which are contrary to our scriptures, that is to Catholic faith, are true?? He would never say such a thing. It makes no sense!

He is saying we must try to prove them to be entirely false, or, at all events (ie, whether we can prove them to be false or not) we must not hesitate to believe they are false.

Whereas, you really believe he is saying we must try to prove them to be entirely false, or at all events (ie, whether or not we can prove them to be false) we must not hesitate to believe they are true?? That is, at all events (even if we can prove them to be false) we must unhesitatingly believe them to be true??

Twaddle!
Edited by Clare, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:19.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerry.

Dei Verbum says:

Quote:
 
11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation...


Note also, that Scripture contains only those things which He wanted. That means that none of it is superfluous.
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Clare
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Then there's the Catechism (yes, the current one):

Quote:
 
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72


Now, Gerry, I never denied that the human authors were real authors, however, you are denying that God is the author of Scripture, and putting me outside the Church for believing it; whereas the Church does teach it, and always has.
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Gerard

Clare, I dont have the stamina to go round in circles forever with a Fundamentalist.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Thursday, 5. August 2010, 18:20
Clare, I dont have the stamina to go round in circles forever with a Fundamentalist.
Gerry,

If you're going to keep denying that the Church teaches what she teaches, and labelling people who accept Catholic teaching as "Fundamentalists", then I guess we will just keep going around in circles.

But, your reading of that St Augustine quote is wrong. I think I have demonstrated that.

And your belief that the Church does not teach that the Holy Ghost is the author of Scripture is also wrong. And I have demonstrated that too, I reckon.
S.A.G.

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Gerard

Quote:
 
And your belief that the Church does not teach that the Holy Ghost is the author of Scripture


Thats twice now that you have accused me of saying something I didnt say so either show us where I said that or apologise !

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 10:40
...They come from a Fundamentalist website whic, though claiming to be Catholic says things like this:

Quote:
 
We must also remember that the Scriptures were dictated to the sacred writers by the Holy Ghost.


Which, of course, is not the Catholic teaching.
Here, Gerry.
S.A.G.

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