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| Gospel Puzzles?; [Revised Catholic Edition] | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. April 2007, 22:25 (1,413 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 20:09 Post #61 |
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Mairtin, several times, moderators have asked that posts address issues rather than the attitudes, beliefs, and practices of individuals members. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 21:19 Post #62 |
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If any of you want to read the quotes from City of God by St Augustine, and Providentissimus Deus by Leop XIII, in context, they can be accessed via the forum reference library. http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/7282267/1/#new http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/7282266/1/#new |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| PJD | Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 21:30 Post #63 |
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"For perhaps the world keeps its central place by the same law that attracts to its center all heavy bodies. (City of God, Bk XIII, Ch 18)" This speaks of gravity; which as far as I know all bodies possess - at different levels of course, but each acts its force on each and every other. Surely the central place for all would remain the same? So I do not see the above quote being in conflict with science. In any case he says 'perhaps'. PJD |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 4. August 2010, 21:39 Post #64 |
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The sun is "the central place" of the solar system. Its gravitaional pull will eventually drag the earth and other planets into itself. The "central place" of the Universe is neither the earth nor the sun. It is the place where the big bang happened - and all matter is moving away from it as the explosion "continues" (as the universe expands outward from its central point). However, I'd be happy to suggest that the earth is the spiritual centre of the Universe. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 14:39 Post #65 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Gerry, Those scripture quotes were "taken out of context" by St Augustine, in case you hadn't noticed.
Gerry, it is Catholic teaching.
So how you can maintain that it is not Catholic teaching, Gerry, I cannot fathom. Even St Augustine would appear to agree with Scripture Catholic "that the Scriptures were dictated to the sacred writers by the Holy Ghost." It is Catholic teaching. |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 14:43 Post #66 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Same as you and Gerry then, Mairtin.
I don't reject them. I just don't take the passage out of context as you did, and ignore everything else in the encyclical. No one seems to want to acknowledge that St Augustine (as quoted by Leo XIII in that very encyclical) said that if science and Scripture contradict, and are irreconcilable, then we must not hesitate to reject the "science". Edited by Clare, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 14:43.
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| Gerard | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 15:53 Post #67 |
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Because we think he said the opposite. I have quoted the same passage twice which I think says the opposite. I see no point in posting the same quote for the third time. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:11 Post #68 |
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Clare, The Church has developed its understanding of Scripture further since 1893. Dei Verbum and subsequent teaching says that the human authors "are real authors". This means they are not secretaries writing down whats dictated but are expressing their understanding and their interaction with God. It (Dei Verbum) goes on to expand on the use of human beings and human language all of which you conveniently ignore in the above discussions. Thus the human author says in human language "the sun rises in the east moves through the sky and sets in the west" and you take that as a science lesson from a time when there was no science. You prefer this to the obvious interpretation that the Bible speaks in human language about things experienced by onrdinary people everyday. I will not now get into a discussion about the authority of the 1893 document. I consider an encyclical from a Pope of lower authority than a Dogmatic Constitution from an Ecumenical Council in unity with a Pope. I also consider that teaching develops. And in this particular example both confirm each other. Those who insist on over literal interpretations justified by claiming the Bible was dictated are fundamentalists who are departing from Catholic teaching. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:14.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:19 Post #69 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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I'm sure I had this argument before with Mairtin somewhere. It depends on what you think the "so" refers to.
Perhaps you can explain to me, how on earth St Augustine could possibly have been saying that we must not hesitate to believe these assertions, which are contrary to our scriptures, that is to Catholic faith, are true?? He would never say such a thing. It makes no sense! He is saying we must try to prove them to be entirely false, or, at all events (ie, whether we can prove them to be false or not) we must not hesitate to believe they are false. Whereas, you really believe he is saying we must try to prove them to be entirely false, or at all events (ie, whether or not we can prove them to be false) we must not hesitate to believe they are true?? That is, at all events (even if we can prove them to be false) we must unhesitatingly believe them to be true?? Twaddle! Edited by Clare, Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:19.
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:34 Post #70 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Gerry. Dei Verbum says:
Note also, that Scripture contains only those things which He wanted. That means that none of it is superfluous. |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 16:56 Post #71 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Then there's the Catechism (yes, the current one):
Now, Gerry, I never denied that the human authors were real authors, however, you are denying that God is the author of Scripture, and putting me outside the Church for believing it; whereas the Church does teach it, and always has. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 18:20 Post #72 |
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Clare, I dont have the stamina to go round in circles forever with a Fundamentalist. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 19:35 Post #73 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Gerry, If you're going to keep denying that the Church teaches what she teaches, and labelling people who accept Catholic teaching as "Fundamentalists", then I guess we will just keep going around in circles. But, your reading of that St Augustine quote is wrong. I think I have demonstrated that. And your belief that the Church does not teach that the Holy Ghost is the author of Scripture is also wrong. And I have demonstrated that too, I reckon. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 20:21 Post #74 |
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Thats twice now that you have accused me of saying something I didnt say so either show us where I said that or apologise ! Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Clare | Thursday, 5. August 2010, 20:36 Post #75 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Here, Gerry. |
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7:54 PM Jul 11