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Gospel Puzzles?; [Revised Catholic Edition]
Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. April 2007, 22:25 (1,415 Views)
Rose of York
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GOSPEL according to John 6
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15 Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone.


Quote:
 
19 When they had rowed therefore about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking upon the sea, and drawing nigh to the ship, and they were afraid.


Jesus had the ability to defy the laws of physics, he could walk on water, so surely he would also have the ability to remove himself from one place and arrive at another, without being seen to run or walk, so why did he need to flee from the crowd? Could he not have just vanished, then appeared when convenient?
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

"Jesus had the ability to defy the laws of physics, he could walk on water, so surely he would also have the ability to remove himself from one place and arrive at another, without being seen to run or walk, so why did he need to flee from the crowd? Could he not have just vanished, then appeared when convenient? "

Exactly Rose. This text raises a query; or at least an interesting meditation on what might be the form of a miracle or such like whatever you may call it.

By co-incidence I had just happened to have read it; and the only reason I put it on this topic was because I could see a 'loose connection if you like' with the topic here regarding the big bang=God particle. Probably mistaken. But at any rate it distinquishes for me the non-equality of one science (science) with another (theology - via scripture); whereby the latter is the guiding light transcending the former.

PJD
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Gerard

PJD

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whereby the latter is the guiding light transcending the former


How do you square that statement with the scandal of theologians forcing Galileo to say the heliocentric solar system was wrong?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Monday, 2. August 2010, 07:16
PJD

Quote:
 
whereby the latter is the guiding light transcending the former


How do you square that statement with the scandal of theologians forcing Galileo to say the heliocentric solar system was wrong?
I don't think that that's a scandal. They may be proved right one day.
S.A.G.

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Gerard

:rofl:

Thanks Clare - excellent entertainment.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 2. August 2010, 09:57.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Monday, 2. August 2010, 09:56
:rofl:

Thanks Clare - excellent entertainment.
Yes, I thought you'd enjoy it, Gerry.

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables....

Please observe the chronology. Truth first, then fables. Not the other way round.
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Rose of York
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PJD
Monday, 2. August 2010, 06:14
By co-incidence I had just happened to have read it; and the only reason I put it on this topic was because I could see a 'loose connection if you like' with the topic here regarding the big bang=God particle. Probably mistaken. But at any rate it distinquishes for me the non-equality of one science (science) with another (theology - via scripture); whereby the latter is the guiding light transcending the former.

Don't theology and science go hand in hand? Scientific knowledge comes from God, the creator. We have a responsibility to care for and use wisely and responsibly all that God gave us, a bit difficult if we don't learn about it.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

I suggest that they are equal disciplines in the sense that each is sovereign in its own sphere. That does not mean that they equate to each other, though they cannot conflict. Nor does it express a view about their relative importance.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

Yes, OsB, that's how I see it.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

So we are, more or less, agreed.

It seems to me that we are concerned here (in minimal terms that is) with what are at least ‘strange events’. Wherefore methinks the use of the expression miracle(s) is a reasonable description

What then has this, if any, to do with the God-particle or science? To my imagination the connection lies, not so much in the fact itself, but in the “form” such event(s) were enabled to come to pass. In other words were they direct interventions by God (Christ Jesus) or did He process them through His created works (creation) by way of nature – the science of which has not yet been discovered.

I wonder Clare what option you would choose?

PJD
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Gerard

PJD

I would like to make it clear that you and I are not in agreement here.

Quote:
 
But at any rate it distinquishes for me the non-equality of one science (science) with another (theology - via scripture); whereby the latter is the guiding light transcending the former.


I disagree profoundly with the notion that theology has anything to teach science. I consider that arrogance which brings about scandal. To quote Augustine of Hippo:

Quote:
 
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?"


Science is about the material world.
Theology is about the spiritual world.

As for miracles, I believe in direct intervention. The Creator can change the laws.

Gerry


Edited by Gerard, Monday, 2. August 2010, 18:46.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

An afterthought. This arrogance about the superiority of theology over science permeates our church. To the point that our leaders have virtually ignored science (I think they were hoping it would go away). Our leaders, from priests upwards have theology and greek philosophy comming out of their ears but are devoid of the sciences.

My thinking on the ramifications of this situation is still developing but one aspect that I think about is that this abrogation of important knowlege is probably unique among the priestly class of any society. One way the priestly class maintains their position in a society is by being the custodians of knowlege and the ability to offer explanations of the world and mastery of that societies technology/medicine. In failing to study these subjects priests have ceded priestly functions to others (scientists and doctors).

Well, my thoughts are not fully formed yet but I think there is something to be found in these ramblings.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 2. August 2010, 19:03.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
PJD
Monday, 2. August 2010, 17:22
What then has this, if any, to do with the God-particle or science? To my imagination the connection lies, not so much in the fact itself, but in the “form” such event(s) were enabled to come to pass. In other words were they direct interventions by God (Christ Jesus) or did He process them through His created works (creation) by way of nature – the science of which has not yet been discovered.

I wonder Clare what option you would choose?
:bl: I don't understand the question! But I do like kittens...
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Monday, 2. August 2010, 18:22
I disagree profoundly with the notion that theology has anything to teach science. I consider that arrogance which brings about scandal.
I disagree profoundly with that! It is "science" which is arrogant.

Gerard
 
To quote Augustine of Hippo:

Quote:
 
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?"


And yet, St Augustine himself evidently "talked non-sense on these topics".

And he also said:

Quote:
 
"Whatever they can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures; and whatever they assert in their treatises which is contrary to these Scriptures of ours, that is to Catholic faith, we must either prove it as well as we can to be entirely false, or at all events we must, without the smallest hesitation, believe it to be so."


That means that if there appears to be a contradiction between a scientific theory and Scripture, and we cannot reconcile them, we must not hesitate to believe that the "science" is wrong.

Gerard
 
Science is about the material world.
Theology is about the spiritual world.


And the spiritual world has an impact on the material world. A fact science, in its arrogance, ignores.
Edited by Clare, Monday, 2. August 2010, 20:35.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Gerard
Monday, 2. August 2010, 19:01
This arrogance about the superiority of theology over science permeates our church. To the point that our leaders have virtually ignored science (I think they were hoping it would go away). Our leaders, from priests upwards have theology and greek philosophy comming out of their ears but are devoid of the sciences.

My thinking on the ramifications of this situation is still developing but one aspect that I think about is that this abrogation of important knowlege is probably unique among the priestly class of any society. One way the priestly class maintains their position in a society is by being the custodians of knowlege and the ability to offer explanations of the world and mastery of that societies technology/medicine. In failing to study these subjects priests have ceded priestly functions to others (scientists and doctors).
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

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