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Gospel Puzzles?; [Revised Catholic Edition]
Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. April 2007, 22:25 (1,410 Views)
PJD

Gospel Puzzles??
[Catholic Edition]

Like many Catholics educated before V2; study of the Bible was, so to speak optional [in fact it wasn’t exactly encouraged]. And many of that time, myself particularly, are only now actually starting to read the Bible – albeit in my case quite infrequently [hope to do better (smile)]. However, having started to make notes, I thought it nice to ask questions here under a topic - particularly as we have Americans on board who (historically) study the Bible in much more depth. So here goes:-

Jn6: 19-21

“When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat. They were frightened, but he said to them, ‘It is I; do not be afraid.’ Then they were glad to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.”

Question: Did two miracles happen here i.e. walking on water and immediate transportation to the shore?

Jn6: 44-45 & 65

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.”

“And he said, ‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.’ “

Question: Does this indicate that it is the Almighty Father Who chooses who are to become Christians?

PJD

[Any similar puzzles/queries from anybody else?]
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Rose of York
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PJD My initial reaction is:

My grandson's questions leave me leave me flummoxed. He is seven years old.

Now I've got your questions on top of his.



:D
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

I only recently paid attention to actually picking up the Bible and reading a passage or two; partly because a colleague was so insistent on its merit and referred to a document Verbum Dei I think.

So, after reading a little at a time, it was natural for me to make a note or two. As a result, as you say, you can now add these two to your list. Sorry about that (smile).

PJD
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Gerard

PJD,

Thank you for this, it got me reading more.

Quote:
 
Question: Did two miracles happen here i.e. walking on water and immediate transportation to the shore?


Yes, or two aspects of one miracle.

This is a "passover". Note the reference to Moses and the prophecy of a Messiah towards the end of Ch 5. Note also that this happens during the time of Passover. The disciples were making slow progress until Jesus came to them and He then takes them quickly (immediately) to the other side. In a sense Jesus parts the waters for them just as He did for Moses.

This is where the Greek scholars have the advantage. They can read it in the original. The closest I can get is in the Amplified Bible:

Quote:
 
16When evening came, His disciples went down to the sea,

17And they took a boat and were going across the sea to Capernaum. It was now dark, and still Jesus had not [yet] come back to them.

18Meanwhile, the sea was getting rough and rising high because of a great and violent wind that was blowing.

19[However] when they had rowed three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and approaching the boat. And they were afraid (terrified).

20But Jesus said to them, It is I; be not afraid! [I AM; stop being frightened!]

21Then they were quite willing and glad for Him to come into the boat. And now the boat went at once to the land they had steered toward. [And immediately they reached the shore toward which they had been slowly making their way.]


Which makes it pretty clear, I think. (Note also the "I AM")

Off to do some more reading now for the second question.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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sumermamma

PJD,
The Father becons all.
I do not think the Father chooses who will become Christians. I would say the Baptismal grace, which includes sanctifying grace, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and infused virtues, received at Baptism play a large part in the Father's directing us to Jesus. Sanctifying grace remains in the soul until/unless a mortal sin is committed. Mortal sin separates us and our souls from the Triune God.
Unfortunately, there can be circumstances which prevent children and adults from having an intense relationship with Jesus. This the Father does not control, nor does He control how we respond to the graces we receive.
Our earliest relationship is with the Father, through Baptism, He opened the door, then, after we receive First Holy Communion, we determine what our relationship with Jesus will be. Granted there are children who are spiritually pure and innocent who may have a relationship with Jesus before First Holy Communion.
sm
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Gerard

PJD
Apr 24 2007, 09:25 PM

Jn6: 44-45 & 65

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.”

“And he said, ‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.’ “

Question: Does this indicate that it is the Almighty Father Who chooses who are to become Christians?

PJD


PJD,

Ok let me have a stab at this. This is, by far, more difficult than your first puzzle.

I think you are bringing in the question of predestination. Is this what you are getting at ? If so I must assume you know the answer from your studies in theology and are asking how it is answered from the Bible.

If so then I would point out that you have introduced the word "chooses" and this is not present in the verses you quote. If we are dealing with something as mysterious as predestination that change in wording may be too significant to ignore. We may have to come back to it.

However, for the present, if we accept your question then I would say a simple and narrow answer to a simple and narrow question is - Yes.

But remember one must not place undue emphasis on a single verse or passage. One must consider the whole Bible. Lets look at where the word choose is actually used in this discourse:

We need only read ahead five verses to find the word choose.

Quote:
 
6:70
Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?"


Jesus (God) chose 12 but one is a devil. I think this means one used his free will to reject being chosen by God.

And in Ch 7 we get this:

Quote:
 
16 Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not my own but is from the one who sent me.
17 Whoever chooses to do his will 7 shall know whether my teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own.


Which is a clear reference to free will of the hearer.

So I answer your puzzle

Yes God chooses
Yes man chooses

Its a mystery
Its a puzzle.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

Thanks to all for responses. I will digest the advice. May come back - but in a sense this sort of thing is new to me.

Have read a little more - just a little that is. Haven't come across anything more to ask; which will please Rose.

PJD
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PJD

Gerry:

Having read your reply – I must off and read it again.

It was nice of you to make references to my possible theological studies, but, no, I haven’t put this on knowing [or looked up] a possible answer. This is not the same as spiritual studies! My use of the word chooses was just text-speak. Nevertheless I thank you for your politeness.

I noted also what sumermamma said; and will have to read that again also.

Wonder what others think?

PJD
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Rose of York
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PJD
Apr 27 2007, 07:04 PM
Haven't come across anything more to ask; which will please Rose.

PJD

No it won't please Rose if you pose no more riddles. I have spent a lot of time reading the interesting contributions on this discussion. They get me thinking.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD


The “Transfiguration”
[Moses and Elias in conversation]

I was serving on the Altar at a funeral a few days ago; and the homily was in the usual direction. Somehow or other, whether or not the transfiguration was mentioned I cannot remember, this incident in scripture came to mind. So I looked it up. There are two – one in Matt and one in Luke almost identical. Matt reads as follows:

Matt:17
AND after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
6 And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not.
8 And they lifting up their eyes saw no one but only Jesus.

The reason I have posted it is because of the visual and acoustic presence of Moses and Elias. I mean in conjunction with ‘dust to dust’ – and then in the sense that their bodily ‘form’ was sort of re-presented.

Has anyone here any comment or biblical commentary reference to hand?

PJD

[The only thing I could find were words by Tertullian: “ In that same scene Moses also and Elias gave proof that the same condition of bodily existence may continue even in glory….” - But then Tertullian, although considered as one of the greatest theologians, was neither a Saint or Doctor of The Church]
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Derekap
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As "time" in Eternity is different from time here on earth, it could be possible that people who die experience the end of the world and undergo resurrection of their bodies despite the fact to us their bodies are still on earth?
Derekap
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Ned

Derekap
Sep 30 2007, 07:44 PM
As "time" in Eternity is different from time here on earth, it could be possible that people who die experience the end of the world and undergo resurrection of their bodies despite the fact  to us their bodies are still on earth?

I don't think 'Possible' is the appropriate word here, derek.

Almighty God can do whatever he wants - and with the dimension of Time as with anything else.

When I was at school we were taught that we would all be subject to two Judgements - the first, our Individual Judgement, at the time of our death and the second at the General Resurrection.

But given God's total power then there is no reason for those two occasions not to be one single event.
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Ned

PJD
Apr 24 2007, 09:25 PM
“And he said, ‘This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.’ “

Question: Does this indicate that it is the Almighty Father Who chooses who are to become Christians?

I am looking at this thread for the first time, and I am surprised that there is a problem.

The Vatican website has a Joint Declaration by the Catholic and Lutheran churches confirming what has always been an important part of mainstream christian belief - for catholics, orthodox and protestants -
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...aration_en.html

Quote:
 
By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
in other words God chose us - we didn't choose him.

Do we believe in Predestination ? That would depend on how you had first defined Predestination. But plainly none of us would have been christians if we had been born to tibetan parents three thousand years ago.
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Deleted User
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Haydock Commentary again !
Quote:
 
Ver. 44. Draw him. Not by compulsion, nor by laying the free-will under any necessity, but by the strong and sweet motions of his heavenly grace. (Challoner) --- We are drawn to the Father by some secret pleasure, delight, or love, which brings us to the Father. "Believe and you come to the Father," says St. Augustine, "Love, and you are drawn. The Jews could not believe, because they would not." God, by his power, could have overcome their hardness of heart; but he was not bound to do it; neither had they any right to expect this favour, after the many miracles which they had seen. (Calmet)

Ver. 45. Every one, therefore, that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned of him who I am, cometh to me by faith and obedience. As to others, when the Scripture says they are taught by God, this is to be understood of an interior spiritual instruction, which takes place in the soul, and does not fall under the senses; but not less real on that account, because it is the heart, which hears the voice of this invisible teacher.


and on Matthew
Quote:
 
[Ver. 3. Moses and Elias. Jesus Christ had been taken by the people for Elias, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He therefore chose the chief of all the prophets to be present, that he might shew his great superiority over them, and verify the illustrious confession of Peter. The Jews had accused Christ of blasphemy, and of breaking the sabbath; the presence of Moses and Elias refuted the calumny; for the founder of the Jewish laws would never have sanctioned him who was a transgressor of those laws; and Elias, so full of zeal for the glory of God, would never have paid homage to one who made himself equal to God, had he not really been the Son of the Most High. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lvii.) --- St. Hilary thinks that Moses and Elias (who represent the law and the prophets, and who here bear witness to the divinity of Jesus Christ,) will be the precursors of his second coming, alluded to in Revelations, chap. xi, though the general opinion of the Fathers is, that the two witnesses there mentioned are Enoch and Elias. (Jansenius) --- It is hence evident, that the saints departed can and do, with the permission of God, take an interest in the affairs of the living. (St. Augustine, de cura pro mort. chap. xv. 16.) --- For as angels elsewhere, so here the saints also, served our Saviour; and as angels, both in the Old and New Testament, were frequently present at the affairs of men, so may saints. (Bristow) --- All interpreters agree that Elias appeared in his own body, but various are their opinions with regard to the apparition of Moses. (Haydock)
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Derekap
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Further to my suggestion that people in Heaven may already have experienced the Resurrection of their bodies, I have since thought that perhaps to the eyes of the Apostles on earth Moses and Elias appeared in their bodies because otherwise the Apostles would not recognise or even see them.
Derekap
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