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Psychopath?; The Abraham story
Topic Started: Sunday, 8. April 2007, 14:33 (403 Views)
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I note from the press that a Church of England bishop has reportedly said that the traditional crucifixion story made God appear like a psychopath. I did not read beneath the headlines but whatever the truth his language could have been better chosen and I do not ally myself with it.

However, it did get me thinking for the umpteenth time about the very disturbing reading at the Vigil last night concerning Abraham being called to sacrifice Isaac. How are we to understand this very powerful story? As a parable? In which case , no problem. But if we are to believe it as literal truth, then it does involve the most incredible psychological cruelty on both Abraham and Isaac. And would anyone be so sure that they had actually heard God telling them first to do this and then staying the execution? Has anyone ever had that clarity of communication with God?

Grateful for your views. Incidentally, I also feel very sorry for the goat who became a billy-burger to round off the story but we can leave him out of the discussion for now!

John
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CARLO
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An interesting subject John.

At Convent School in the early 1960s this was one of the very first Biblical stories we were taught and that we discussed at great length. We even had to draw the scene several times.

Of course it is a story with a happy ending. Abraham didn't have to sacrifice his son. He found a ram (not a goat!) caught in the brambles to sacrifice instead after he had demonstrated his willingness to make his own supreme sacrifice for his God.

The story did us no harm and we were able to learn the value of a strong faith and that in the end God is not a cruel God and will save us if we only have faith in him.

Thinking back now it is hard to believe that I was only about 6 years old at the time.

So in summary a good lesson, no harm done and nearly 50 years later it is still imprinted on my mind.

Pax


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Gerard

John,

Yes the OT sure is difficult.
Here is how I see it:

Quote:
 
How are we to understand this very powerful story? As a parable?


No, as something that happened.

Quote:
 
But if we are to believe it as literal truth


Essentially true

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then it does involve the most incredible psychological cruelty on both Abraham and Isaac.


Yes, but not as horrific as we perceive it today. In that place and time in history, child sacrifice was common (cf the references to Molech throughout the OT). So the unusual event was God intervening to stop it. God revealed himself as different from the common perception of what a god was like. This was God starting to educate His people in His ways. One way of looking at this is that because we are recipients of this education we find the story horrific.

Quote:
 
And would anyone be so sure that they had actually heard God telling them first to do this and then staying the execution? Has anyone ever had that clarity of communication with God?


Yes, many, but they would not be absolutley certain. It still involves faith. And I wonder if Abraham did hear God correctly in the first instance. Did God ask this or did Abraham think God asked for Isaac to be sacrificed?

But then, when you read the story in view of Christ's sacrifice it is altogether so much more poweful.

Gerry



"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Deleted User
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Tkanks Carlo an dGerry, very interesting and informative takes on this.

I agree about the potency of the story. Without question.

However, even if the lesson is that our God is a forgiving one unlike others who demanded child sacrifice, how can the impact on isaac be justified?

John
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pete

Quote: - Did God ask this or did Abraham think God asked for Isaac to be sacrificed?

I’ve no doubt that God did ask this of Abraham in order to test Abraham’s faith. However in today’s world, had he been caught in the act, how would the Courts have taken to Abraham Alibi? An attempt to kill or assault are a very serious offences, don’t you think?
Had Abraham have said in evidence that he was instructed by God to carry out this dreadful act and we were all members of the jury, I for one would find that heard to swallow.
God bless
Pete
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PJD


Hasn't there been a suggestion that Abraham was aware that an Angel would stay his hand?

PJD
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Here's the Haydock Bible Commentary on the passage:

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Ver. 10. To sacrifice; a thing hitherto unprecedented, and which God would never suffer to be done in his honour, though he was pleased to try the obedience of his servant so far. The pagans afterwards took occasion, perhaps, from this history, to suppose, that human victims would be the most agreeable to their false deities: (Calmet) but in this misconception they were inexcusable, since God prevented the sacrifice from being really offered to him, in the most earnest manner, saying, Abraham, Abraham, as if there were danger lest the holy man should not hear the first call. (Haydock)




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CARLO
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PJD
Apr 8 2007, 07:22 PM
Hasn't there been a suggestion that Abraham was aware that an Angel would stay his hand?

PJD

No there hasn't !

:o

Libera me
Deliver me


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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CARLO
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pete
Apr 8 2007, 06:58 PM
Quote: - Did God ask this or did Abraham think God asked for Isaac to be sacrificed?

I’ve no doubt that God did ask this of Abraham in order to test Abraham’s faith. However in today’s world, had he been caught in the act, how would the Courts have taken to Abraham Alibi? An attempt to kill or assault are a very serious offences, don’t you think?
Had Abraham have said in evidence that he was instructed by God to carry out this dreadful act and we were all members of the jury, I for one would find that heard to swallow.
God bless
Pete

Pete

This is the Old Testament not Perry Mason or Kavanagh QC !!

:(

Too many Easter Eggs?

Salva nos
Save us


CARLO
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Gerard

CARLO
Apr 8 2007, 11:48 PM
PJD
Apr 8 2007, 07:22 PM
Hasn't there been a suggestion that Abraham was aware that an Angel would stay his hand?

PJD

No there hasn't !

:o

Libera me
Deliver me


CARLO

Carlo,

Oh yes there has :fire:


But to raise the level of this particular debate:

I cnat say who first sugested it, and by the form of words used by PJD I would guess neither can he. However, I have certainly come across this suggestion before. Abraham does say "God will provide the lamb". You can either interpret this as a lie to placate Isaac or as faith that God will provide a lamb and prevent the sacrifice of Isaac. Which one makes makes both God and Abraham look better?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

After I had posted my remark I thought that I should have used the word faith instead of aware.

Surely Abraham would have had faith in God's goodness?

Nevertheless can't argue very much against Carlo's response that no there hasn't been that suggestion. But how about that perhaps there should be that suggestion?

PJD

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CARLO
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Bascially Abraham was just stringing Isaac along.

That is what I was taught and we all accepted it as the natural thing to do.

I mean otherwise poor old Isaac would have legged it wouldn't he? :o

However I understand the suggestion that Abraham may have been hoping for the best.

I would have been too! :bl:

However this is not a suggestion that was ever put forward by the Sisters who instructed me pre-V2.


Veritas
Truth


CARLO
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Rose of York
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CARLO
Apr 9 2007, 02:47 PM
Bascially Abraham was just stringing Isaac along.

So Abraham, not God, was the psycopath? What sort of Dad would pull such an 'orrible trick on the kid?
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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Carlo. If you had expressed such views to the Sisters you would have been expelled and probably excommunicated.

And we would not have enjoyed your contributions.
Derekap
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CARLO
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Derekap
Apr 9 2007, 02:52 PM
Carlo.  If you had expressed such views to the Sisters you would have been expelled and probably excommunicated.

And we would not have enjoyed your contributions.

:P You're very kind Derek.

Laughing aside folks I don't think there's much point in trying to reinvent or sanitise Biblical tales by applying out of context modern day interpretations!

Pax
Whatever



CARLO
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