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Catechesis
Topic Started: Tuesday, 26. September 2006, 20:26 (1,769 Views)
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Gerard
Feb 11 2008, 03:20 PM
The first link you provided was very interesting - the one on the history.
Apparently a catechism is a protestant invention.

Gerry

:rofl:

Indeed, and they still have the THE WESTMINSTER SHORTER CATECHISM. A.D. 1647.
:D
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The Bible is better.


Apart from the fact that the little catechism is much easier to fit in one's pocket, we do not depend on sola scriptura. Scott Hahn writes:
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It goes on, "She has always maintained them, and continues to do so, together with Sacred Tradition as the supreme rule of Faith since, as inspired by God, and committed once and for all to writing, they impart the Word of God Himself without change." In other words, for the Catholic believer the Word of God alone is supreme. Recognize that we need to make it clear to the non-Catholic believers that we are bound by God's Word and God's Word alone. It's just that the Scriptures aren't the only source for God's Word, just as the Scriptures themselves declare.

We're going to look at 2 Thessalonians 2:15 in just a few moments. There Paul reminds the Thessalonian believers that they must hold fast to whatever the traditions are that the apostles have passed down either in writing or by word of mouth. So Scripture insists that the Scriptures are not the only source for God's Word; we have Sacred Tradition as well, oral tradition as vouched, as attested by the New Testament itself. The point that I just made a moment ago can be simply stated this way: We do not believe in Sola Scriptura, the Bible alone but we do believe in Solum Verbum Dei, the Word of God alone. It's just wrong to say, "The Word of God is found in the Bible alone." It's contrary to Scripture itself.

The Bible & the Church;Both or Neither
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Rose of York
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How about this suggestion?

A new series of question and answer catechisms, one for each age group from early childhood to late teens, and one for adult Catholics and prospective or new converts, something simpler than either the full Catechism or the Compendium, as neither of those are suitable for people with poor educational attainments. I am considering here, material purely for reference.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

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We obviously need both.


I really don't think we need the horrible penny catechism. We need the Bible (which is alive and active) and a good teacher (preferably alive and active also)

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Lilo
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Gerard
Feb 11 2008, 09:13 AM

I really don't think we need the horrible penny catechism.

What was horrible about it?
The root problem in a lot of bad catechesis is ultimately not ignorance, but pride. ~ Mark Shea

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Gerard

Lilo

Didnt you read my earlier posts?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

KataA,

Scott Hahn does not say we need the Bible and the catechism.

He says we need the Bible and the Church.
This I agree with wholeheartedly.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Lilo
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Rose of York
Feb 11 2008, 08:51 AM
How about this suggestion?

A new series of question and answer catechisms, one for each age group from early childhood to late teens

There are new catechism programs available now that are really very good.

We used the Faith & Life series from Gr 1 - 8:

http://www.catecheticalresources.com/fl-revised.htm

If you use the student text only, they're good for reference, and they do (gulp!) have Q & A at the end of most chapters. Anyone who wants to use these for their children's religion course should really buy the teachers' manuals as well; I found that half the course was in them.

For high school & adult, there's an excellent set:

The Catholicism series by Hayes, Hayes & Drummey, CR Publications.

Catholicism & Society - Marriage, Family, and Social Issues

Catholicism and Reason - The Creed and Apologetics

Catholicism & Life - Commandments and Sacraments

Catholicism & Ethics

I see that they've now added

Catholicism & Scripture - Salvation History - didn't have that when I was homeschooling or I'd have used it.

The Catholicism series is strictly books, not a course. I had to devise that myself.

One (of many) on-line source for them is

http://www.getfed.com/catholic-product/125...-Social-Issues/

The root problem in a lot of bad catechesis is ultimately not ignorance, but pride. ~ Mark Shea

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Quicunque vult

Gerard wrote:

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The reason I entered this thread was because of the view that what we needed now was to go back to teaching as we used to - from the penny catechism and its ilk. We find it here in QVs post. But rote produced no better results.


You have distorted what I said! I went some way to recognising that the Penny Catechism may not have been taught very well. How it was taught says nothing about the value of the document itself.

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QV - I will show what is so bad about the penny catechism:
QUOTE
FAITH

Faith in God

1. Who made you?

God made me.

2. Why did God make you?

God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him for ever in the next.

That is the first two questions in the penny catechism. The first thing the 5 year old is taught - and the only bit they are likely to remember years later (you can test this out by asking your friends). Now. What sort of God is that? Is it the God of Islam? Could well be. It says He made us specifically to serve him - just like Islam's God. And the rule is WE love and serve him. Thats not the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity made us to love us. He served us more than we could ever serve him. When you reduce Christianity to a set of rules you invariably loose the love of God.


What is so wrong with that? If we know God, we will know that He loves us. This passage shows a concern for eschatology that is lacking in many modern materials.

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The Bible is better.


They are not either/or. A rounded Catholic education will expose people to both.

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We need the Bible (which is alive and active) and a good teacher (preferably alive and active also)


And where does the teacher get his or her teaching from? Where in the Bible can we find out about the Sacraments, purgatory, the doctrine of redemption, the Immaculate Conception etc?

We need both teaching and the Bible. Reliance on the Bible alone is a Protestant belief, and totally illogical. We need the full Deposit of Faith – Sacred Tradition, which has been handed down to us by the Apostles and their successors, and Sacred Scripture, interpreted for us by the Magisterium.

I don't see what is so wrong with rules. The basic rules are the Ten Commandments, which Our Lord fully adhered to. His disagreement with the Pharisees was not over the existence of rules, but over their interpretation. Surely, today, society is falling apart from the absence of rules – not Government regulations, of which there are far too many – but absence of generally agreed rules on morality. We could do with plenty more of those, beginning with the Ten Commandments.

QV
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Gerard

QV

Yes indeed, some people do prefer rules.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Feb 11 2008, 08:39 PM
QV

Yes indeed, some people do prefer rules.

Gerry

I like rules. They leave us without excuses for cutting God out of our lives, neglecting our parents, stealing, libelling, agressive behaviour (eg spitting at folks) or tempting other womens' husbands to be unfaithful.

Rules protect ME from the behaviour of the others. :D

Gerard you tell me where we would be without rules. Religion that says "all you need is love" is self indulgence lacking in commitment and self discipline.
Keep the Faith!

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sumermamma

Rose of York,
AMEN.
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Gerard

Rose,

I think I have already said everything I need to say on this subject. I siply point out once again that I said above that in Christianity the rules are secondary and subservient.

Sorry - one last thing. You dont get to heaven by keeping the rules (though you wouldnt know that from the penny catechism)

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Quicunque vult

Gerard

I am not talking about preference for rules, but a general human need for rules. In our relativistic age, almost all rules have been abandoned, out of overweening pride: "we are too clever and sophisticated, we have no need for rules, excepting of course the Highway Code, tax regulations etc etc etc".

Incidentally, as you will be aware from reading the Gospels, Our Lord added a considerable number of rules to those which the disciples, as observant Jews, would already have been required to follow.

QV
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Feb 11 2008, 08:52 PM
Sorry - one last thing. You dont get to heaven by keeping the rules  (though you wouldnt know that from the penny catechism)

Gerry

I won't go out for dinner, have a walk in the countryside or read a good book by keeping the man made rules of the State, but keeping them has kept me out of jail (so far).

Keeping the rules as laid down in the Catechism will help keep me out of Hell.

What do you mean, Gerry? You don't get to Heaven by keeping the rules? I hope that keeping the following will help me on my way:

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321. Which are the seven Corporal Works of Mercy?

    The seven Corporal Works of Mercy are:
    1. To feed the hungry.
    2. To give drink to the thirsty.
    3. To clothe the naked.
    4. To harbour the harbourless.
    5. To visit the sick.
    6. To visit the imprisoned.
    7. To bury the dead. (Matt. 25; Tobias 12)

Children and adults hear the parable of the sheep and goats, when it is read out in church.  That parable makes it pretty clear that certain rules must be obeyed in order to be elibigle for admission to Heaven.
"Jesus saves, accept Jesus is your Lord and Saviour and you've cracked it" is a protestant concept.

The Catechism and the Bible go nicely together.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Well Rose I think you just made my point for me.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works of the law.

(And that IS Catholic ! :D )

Gerry




"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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