Medjugorje-alleged Apparitions

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Medjugorje-alleged Apparitions; For debate
Topic Started: Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 00:32 (9,904 Views)
Rose of York	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 00:32 Post #1
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	There appears to be increased interest, in Catholic circles, about Medjugorge. I have little knowledge about it, and would like to know more. What is the "general line" of the messages? Has there been any sign of approval from bishops or from Rome? Can any members help please? Catholic Cyberforum permits open discussion of Medjugorje. Please do not take that as an indication of endorsement. The Holy See has yet to state whether or not the claimed apparitions and revelations are genuine.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


MickCook	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 01:22 Post #2
Posts: 633 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose of York Jan 31 2007, 12:32 AM There appears to be increased interest, in Catholic circles, about Medjugorge. I have little knowledge about it, and would like to know more. What is the "general line" of the messages? Has there been any sign of approval from bishops or from Rome? Can any members help please? The general theme of the messages from Medjugorje is fasting, prayer, going to confession on a regular basis, attending Mass and reading Sacred Scripture. The messages also request us to listen to God and to act as His witnesses, especially to those who have fallen away from the Church. There is nothing in any message made public that is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. The local bishop, Msgr Peric, does not believe that the visionaries are telling the truth. However, the views of the local bishop are his own personal views and do not reflect the position of the Church. His predecessor had been charged with investigating the phenomenon but the Vatican (and oddly enough the present Pope) questioned the validity of the initial investigation – there were apparently serious questions about it. The Vatican passed the brief to the Bishops of Yugoslavia and later Medjugorje became the responsibility of the Bishops of Bosnia and Herzegovina. While Medjugorje is not officially recognised as a place of pilgrimage, it is understood to be a holy place of private pilgrimage and the church there, St. James, is the centre of pilgrimage. The Declaration of Zadar charged the Church to look after the spiritual well-being of pilgrims to the place, and this has been done by the clergy at St. James. There is no problem between the parish and the Bishop of Mostar, who is a regular visitor to the place. Only two of the alleged visionaries are claiming to see the Blessed Virgin Mary on a daily basis. These regular visions will cease when each have received their tenth secret (they have received nine each so far). The other visionaries have already received the ten secrets and experience visions on a less regular basis. There have been two medical tribunals testing the visionaries who are still claiming to see the Blessed Virgin Mary (she appears while they are praying the Rosary). Both medical tribunals have stated that the visionaries are not lying – they are seeing something. Medjugorje is still under investigation by the Church. Those who make unsubstantiated claims about Medjugorje – one why or another – are in opposition to Church teaching. It is okay to express a personal point of view – providing it is understood to be a personal point of view. I hope the above clarifies the matter.
	:) Mick The Cook Companies


Rose of York	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 01:30 Post #3
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Mick that was great. On some forums there are pages and pages of posts, you have put it in a nutshell. One distinct impression I gain from objectors, is that they make snide remarks about the visionaries being far from poor. Are they wealthy? Perhaps, because Bernadette and the three children at Fatima were poor peasants, barely educated, some people think poverty is a pre-requisite for being "chosen" by God and Our Lady for a special role. I have no such prejudices. A lot of our martyrs were from wealthy influential landed gentry. Do any of the visionaries have jobs, in paid employment?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


MickCook	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 04:57 Post #4
Posts: 633 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: September 26, 2006	Karin and I know some of the Medjugorje visionaries personally. In fact none of the visionaries are from wealthy backgrounds. Ivan use to work at the back of one of the shops in town. Karin will also be responding, so I'll leave more of the detail to her. We get our information from official Church sources, from the visionaries themselves or from the parish of St. James (we have a video interview with Fr. Slavco at St. James rectory that we shot ourselves). It is interesting to note that a British television film unit (I think the BBC) made an issue of being moved on by the local police when they tried to film near the visionaries homes. What they did not tell anyone is that the place they were filiming from was a drop-off point for the coaches and a major intercection that they were obstructing and that's why they were being asked to move. They were actually some distance from the nearest house belonging to a visionary. The road on which some (but not all) the visionaries live has been dubbed by some unkind indiviuals "millionares row" in an attempt to present the visionaries as being wealthy. As Karin and I know, the homes of the visionaries (we have been in them) are no different from any one elses and the road itself has more craters than the moon! In fact the one home that does stand out as belonging to someone of wealth (this is the one with tennis courts) is perhaps the only house in the area that belongs to someone who has nothing whatever in common with any of the visionaries or their families. The visionaries are not from a wealthy background. Mick
	:) Mick The Cook Companies


Karin	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 04:59 Post #5
Karin Posts: 825 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: September 26, 2006	Ivan is married to an American (Laureen) and lives part-time in Medjugorje and part-time in the States with his in-laws. Ivan and his wife have three children and Ivan is in the process of becoming an American citizen. He speaks at churches, meetings, seminars and retreats throughout the world and when he is at home in Medjugorje, Ivan meets regularly with his prayer group, gives talks to the pilgrims and opens his home to pilgrims for their lodging. He and his family built his home from materials native to the area. It's by no means luxurious, but clean and very pleasant. Land is at a premium, so the people tend to build up - not out. When he can, Ivan also works in his family's gift shop, so you could say yes, he does have employment!!! The chapel built in Ivan's home is also small, but very tranquil. Mick and I have been invited to be with Ivan during several of his apparitions with Our Lady. I can't even begin to express how moving those experiences are. I have been within two feet of Ivan during several of these encounters, can hear him breathing and can see him change when he begins to speak with Our Lady. I could set him on fire and he wouldn't even notice I'd done it. Skeptics can say what they like, but this is very real. Mirjana lives with her husband and children across the road from Ivan and Jakov also lives close-by. Jakov has worked in the village and found it difficult to find a job where he isn't recognised constantly, so he and his family have also opened their home to pilgrims. Jakov is very shy, plus he is also the youngest of the visionaries. One thing I know about Jakov, I can make him laugh! Mirjana, Jackov and Vicka give talks to the pilgrims, meet with retreat groups and try to live a relatively normal life. The other two visionaries are moms and sometimes do speak with pilgrims, but mostly tend to stay away from the limelight. Vicka, who is my dear friend, has married and started her family. She has had life-threatening illnesses, which have left her debilitated at times. When she was seriously ill, Our Lady told her she would be all right if she maintained her faith (which, of course she did without question). Our Lady also told her when she would be healed and that's exactly what happened. Vicka speaks often to people around the world, sometimes at conferences in the States and when she feels well enough, to the pilgrims in Medjugorje. She and her husband live in a nearby village. Mick and I often stay with her family in their home or with Ivan's cousin. Not to plug my second book, but I have part of the story line set in Medjugorje during a pilgrimage and you can get an idea what the area and homes are like. I hope I have described everything well. Because the war left the area so devastated, the people were left with no services - no electricity, no water or sewer. There was no telephone service, let alone internet. Jobs were scarce, but those who worked in shops and in the hotel industry worked seven days a week, often for 15-18 hours a day to pay for the restoration of their country, pay the enormous taxes levied by the government to pay for all of it, plus they needed to support their families (as many of the fathers and husbands had to work away from Hercegovina to earn a living, if they could even find employment). The visionaries are no different. Many of the roads are filled with huge potholes and although most of the vehicles and taxi cabs are older model Mercedes (because they are very easy to service and outlast the potholes!), Ivan's car is loaned to him by a friend. So if someone said, "Oh Ivan drives a Mercedes," they would be correct...an older model, loaned vehicle! You can walk pretty much anywhere you want in the area, so he really doesn't need it unless he's going outside of the area. Fortunately for the Village of Medjugorje, the millions of pilgrims and religious who have come through over the past twenty-six years have pumped much needed money into their economy and all the hard work has paid off. But to say the visionaries are wealthy is ridiculous. They are unassuming people, not overly educated by our standards, but Ivan, I believe, has a Master's Degree from Boston University (don't quote me on that, because my memory is a bit rusty on that one!). But he's no slouch in the brains department AND he's a nice guy. The Church regards Medjugorje as a Holy place of peace and of prayer. Hopefully at some day in the future, the decision will be rendered if it is truly the site of Our Lady's apparitions. If you want to see a good movie about the early days of Medjugorje, when the children began seeing Our Lady, get "Gospa." It stars Martin Sheen, Michael York, Frank Findlay and other recognisable stars and it gives you an idea of the area, the people and the cruelty of the Communists, especially the torture of Father Jozo Zovko, who was the parish priest at the time. The quality of the movie isn't that great and it has Croatian subtitles (or English dubbed over), but it's worth a look. Okay, this is long enough. I told you I could write forever about our experiences in Medjugorje and I certainly can. I can also recommend the best pizza in the world at Coco's Restaurant...it's a house specialty - white pizza with veggies. If you'd like to ask anything else, please feel free to ask away. Mick and I will be delighted to answer, even if it's a tough question.
	Karin Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas. "Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."


Rose of York	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 20:51 Post #6
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Karin Jan 31 2007, 04:59 AM When he can, Ivan also works in his family's gift shop, so you could say yes, he does have employment!!! The chapel built in Ivan's home is also small, but very tranquil. Mick and I have been invited to be with Ivan during several of his apparitions with Our Lady. I can't even begin to express how moving those experiences are. I have been within two feet of Ivan during several of these encounters, can hear him breathing and can see him change when he begins to speak with Our Lady. I could set him on fire and he wouldn't even notice I'd done it. Skeptics can say what they like, but this is very real. Karin, I am amazed. I was not aware that you knew the Medjugorge visionaries so well. Karin Jan 31 2007, 04:59 AM Okay, this is long enough. I told you I could write forever about our experiences in Medjugorje and I certainly can. Karin, please do continue. This is worth reading. I have an open mind about Medjugorge, I have little knowledge of it. There are plenty of websites about it, and some look as though they come from persons wishing to attack, rather than give us information on which we can form our own opinions. Can Karin and Mick please advise on reliable websites, also please recommend some good reading material. Mention Karin's book if you wish.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 20:53 Post #7
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	MickCook Jan 31 2007, 04:57 AM The visionaries are not from a wealthy background. Mick It would not matter if they did. However on some forums I have known people to suggest the visionaries live in luxury, having made money from becoming famous as visionaries. Obviously Mick and Karin disagree.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 21:09 Post #8
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Quote: The Ex-Yugoslavia Bishops' Conference In Zadar, April 1991 At the ordinary session of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia in Zadar from April 9 - 11, 1991 the following was adopted. DECLARATION The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje. On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church. For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje. Karin and Mick, is the above the Declaration of Zadar, that Mick mentioned? It is from the following website: Website - The Church's Position on Medjugorge
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


MickCook	Wednesday, 31. January 2007, 21:29 Post #9
Posts: 633 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose of York Jan 31 2007, 09:09 PM Quote: The Ex-Yugoslavia Bishops' Conference In Zadar, April 1991 At the ordinary session of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia in Zadar from April 9 - 11, 1991 the following was adopted. DECLARATION The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje. On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church. For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje. Karin and Mick, is the above the Declaration of Zadar, that Mick mentioned? It is from the following website: Website - The Church's Position on Medjugorge Yep... The three things to note from the declaration: Quote: On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. Translation: The jury is still out. Quote: However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church. Translation: The Bishop of Mostar (Bishop Peric) and the priests at Medjugorje are charged with looking after the spiritual well-being of those on pilgrimage to Medjugorje (even if the pilgrimage is unofficial). This is exactly what they are doing. Quote: Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje. Translation: The jury is still out - the matter is still under investigation. The Church is far more aware of what actually is going on in Medjugorje than most people - especially those who express negative views. Whatever decision the Church makes about Medjugorje will be just fine by me, but until that decision is made any conclusion made by anyone else is nothing more than a personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to express an opinion, as long as the person understands that's all it is. In the meantime, there is nothing wrong with reading Sacred Scripture, going to Confession, attending Mass, fasting and praying - especially the rosary. Love God and keep his commandments.
	:) Mick The Cook Companies


Patrick	Friday, 2. February 2007, 01:09 Post #10
Administrator Posts: 3,631 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	There is an interview with Vicka, one of the visionaries, on YouTube. I will post the first part below, which you can watch, but for the rest of it you can click here and select them from the menu on the right-hand side... [doHTML]<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-ANuryDkto8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-ANuryDkto8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>[/doHTML]



Karin	Friday, 2. February 2007, 04:50 Post #11
Karin Posts: 825 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: September 26, 2006	Patrick, thank you so much for finding this and posting the video of our friend Vicka. She looks so good. She has had back problems, but she seems much better and I know she is on the mend, as I can see it in her eyes...they sparkle again. I'll be posting a few links for anyone to look up. One is that of the IIPG (International Internet Prayer Group), which has over 4,000 members worldwide and the magazine, "Medjugorje Magazine", which is published here in the States, I believe has worldwide circulation. I'm a little rushed this evening, so I'll post tomorrow. Thank you again for this, Patrick.
	Karin Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas. "Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."


pete	Saturday, 7. April 2007, 21:01 Post #12
Posts: 695 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: April 2, 2007	Hi Karin, I’m so pleased that you know Vicka she is just wonderful. The day I saw her speaking outside her old house standing on the lower steps, she was actually knocked to the ground by the surging crowd. She was helped to her feet and instead of looking flustered she continued talking, still smiling as if nothing had happened. Whilst she was talking she looked in my direction and seeing my Downs-syndrome son she blew him a kiss. When she had finished, one of the pilgrims took my sons hand and forced his way through the crowd to Vicka, her smile radiated and she held her hands over my sons head and prayed over him. I never got the opportunity to meet her, but all those who have met her, think she’s someone very, special. God bless Pete



Jamie	Sunday, 8. April 2007, 09:30 Post #13
Posts: 123 Group: Members Member #49 Joined: December 3, 2006	Rose of York Jan 31 2007, 01:30 AM One distinct impression I gain from objectors, is that they make snide remarks about the visionaries being far from poor. I know very little about the 'apparitions' but I have also heard people say they can't possibly be true because at least some of the visionaries are now married - and as you know Rose holiness is strictly the preserve of the celibate......



Rose of York	Sunday, 8. April 2007, 09:51 Post #14
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Jamie Apr 8 2007, 10:30 AM and as you know Rose holiness is strictly the preserve of the celibate...... What a cracker of a first posting, from Jamie. I have no strong feelings about Medjugorge. Whether or not they are eventually declared to be genuine, will have no effect on my own personal faith.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Clare	Sunday, 8. April 2007, 10:11 Post #15
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman Posts: 3,093 Group: Members Member #70 Joined: March 27, 2007	Vicka Ivankovic The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son. Well, maybe Vicka misunderstood what the Gospa said, but if she didn't misunderstand, the above statement alone makes Medjugorje suspect! Clare.
	S.A.G. My attempt at a blog.


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