mick

Aug, 11:18 PM

hi need some help, our parish has been earmarked for closure due to it being to expensive to save 400,000 at the last survey, have any of you faced parish closure and if you did what did you do to save the parish? we are doing the usual things like boot sales etc, and were going to do coffee mornings but the hall must shut within the next 2 weeks so we have been hamstrung with that option, any suggestions will be gladly recieved
thank you
michael

Rose of York

Aug, 02:22 AM

mick I have a few ideas.

Does your parish have an accountant, a surveyor and a solicitor who would offer their services free of charge?

How many households are in the parish?

How much does the parish have in invested or reservedfunds?  It is unusual for that to be included in the accounts shown to parishioners.  Our parish was supposed to be in debt.  I noticed the figures did not balance.  On enquiring I learnt we had about a quarter of a million invested in the Common Investment Fund of the Diocesan Trust.  That information had been kept from parishioners who thought the parish was in debt.  It was in debt - on the current bank account but there was a lot of money invested.

Has the diocese applied for planning permission to demolish the listed building?

If the land on which the church stands was a gift, is there a covenant on the deeds saying it must be used for Catholic worhsip in perpetuity?

Has the Historic Building Commission (or equivalent department for Catholic Churches) given permission?

Is the hall worth renting out?  If so would it gain enough rent to finance a loan?

More tomorrow Mick.  I'm tired.

Rose of York

Aug, 10:31 AM

mick I have a few ideas.

Does your parish have an accountant, a surveyor and a solicitor who would offer their services free of charge?

Ask the diocesan finance department how much money your parish has, in invested funds or restricted funds.  Those amounts are not always shown on the version of accounts shown to parishioners. 

The Church is listed.  That means the owners can have an order slapped on them, to repair and maintain it.  If the answer is, the parish does not have the money, well the parish does not own the building.  I was at a joke consultation meeting when a Vicar General told parishioners they would need to raise something like £160 thousand,  I stood up and asked him, who is legally liable, the parishioners or the Diocesan Trust.  He did not look happy, and after a bit of prodding admitted I was right.  See if the Council can help, they diocese cannot go around knocking listed buidings down.

Is it true the repairs would cost £400,000?  See if you can get an independent survey carried out, that is why I suggest seeing if there is a surveyor in the parish. 


Has the diocese applied for planning permission to demolish the listed building?  Has the Historic Building Commission (or equivalent department for Catholic Churches) given permission?

If the land on which the church stands was a gift, is there a covenant on the deeds saying it must be used for Catholic worhsip in perpetuity?  Phone the Land Registry for Advice.

Is the hall worth renting out?  If so would it gain enough rent to finance a loan?

What annoys me is the dioceses want the benefits of registered charitable status, so that they don't have to pay Corporation Tax.  They forget the registered purpose of the charity is (among other purposes) the spread of the Catholic religion.

Mick they will keep spouting Canon Law at you.  Canon Law says one thing about land and property.  Laws passed by Parliaments say differently.

mick

Aug, 03:02 PM

thanks rose all that will help in our fight to save the parish, we are all writing personal letters to the bishop also a joint parish one, and a few parishoners are looking into one or two of these things already, thanks once again

Eve

Aug, 03:24 PM

mick do your councillors and MP know the Diocese want to knock a listed building down?  Would local historians and newspapers join your protest?  Make capital about deChristianising England and about multiculturalism.  The building is a symbol of Christianity.  If there is a War Memorial in the church insist it be preserved not desecrated.

mick

Aug, 03:43 PM

they say they cannot knock the building down, but that they can convert into flats, also a developer has bought the spare land and pub that sits behind our site, they think they will get a tidy sum for our parish, land is a premium in this part of Scotland so even our run down area is beginning to look attractive, even to the extent the local council is investing some 61 million pounds into the area, we are looking into the marble altar area it is absolutely beautiful, checking to see how it was purchased and if it was donations etc, our parish was thriving we had 16 children in the kids liturgy not to mention the under 5's in the parish, with the sunday provision taken away from us to a saturday our families has dropped to just one so 2 kids in the church and that is not healthy for future growth,( most of the young families have a parent who works in the service sector asda garages and a few nurses so saturday is a working day here ) and you know yourself a family that prays together tends to stay together, another thing we can argue is that some 900 poles have moved to our area and dont know what time mass is or where we are due to no sign on the church giving the parish name and mass time, we are exploring a few things just now so we will keep praying and trying

Rose of York

Aug, 05:29 PM

Mick our public library laminates A4 posters for 50 pence each.  Quick, get some posters in the shops, pubs, libraries.  If five households chip in, it will cost you £5 each for a total of 50 posters.  Two of us did that.  We only distributed about six posters and got two families and two couples.  If some people cannot afford it they can knock it off the collection money.

Now for public awareness.  How about a candlelit Novena to your Scottish martyrs?  They preserved the Faith, they might like a second crack.

Locate a priest hole.  Invite the bishop to have a "sabatical year" inside it.

mick

Aug, 06:28 PM

Locate a priest hole. Invite the bishop to have a "sabatical year" inside it.

:rofl:  that has cheered me up

Rose of York

Aug, 07:23 PM

Holiday Accommodation for Scottish Bishop who Indulges in Decline Management

Law Castle, West Kilbride, Ayrshire

Upper Floor Level 2:
King-size four-poster bedroom with 'Priest Hole' and woodburning stove
King-size four-poster bedroom with 'oratory' and wood burning stove
Shower/wet room

His Lordship can move between the oratory and the priesthole.



Downstairs there is a prison, complete with bars.

Send the Bishop up the mountains, on a Martyrdom Awareness Initiative.  Tell him to find a little recusant baby to baptise.  With a bit of luck he'll get arrested and taken straight back to the castle and locked up in the prison.

mick

Aug, 08:23 PM

although i do sympathise with tough financial decisions that they make , they have to remember we are a church not a business, those priests of old will be turning in their graves that a thriving catholic community is being suffocated in this way, if we are not careful we will be viewed as a middle class organisation who willl only accept you into the faith if your community is affluent enough, when jesus walked among men he overturned the traders tables and chased them from the temple, we have gone one step worse we are trying to stop them selling the temple

Rose of York

Aug, 08:42 PM

Mick do you know anything about the financial position of your diocese?  You can see the accounts on the Charity Commission website. You will need the correct title of the Diocesan Trust, or the Registered Charity number.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/regis...ities/first.asp

It is possible your parish is being used to pay the Diocesan bills.

All this reminds me of the period of change when we all started travelling to large stores.  Big was beautiful.  Tough luck on people without cars.  However supermarkets arrange their opening hours to catch the punters.  Bishops arrange them to get rid.  I cannot imagine what is in their minds.  If they must play at business executives, a  massive advertising campaign would cost money, but it would soon pay for itself.

What doth it profit a bishop if he improve the financial situation and risk the loss of many souls?

Hey I've just thought, why doesn't a Catholic layperson offer to be interviewed on local radio?  Tell the people about your thriving community.  Tell the Polish people you want them.  Do you have a good local radio phone in programme?  Fill that church, show the bishop you will take some killing off.

Patrick

Aug, 09:35 PM

mick

Aug, 05:28 PM

Locate a priest hole. Invite the bishop to have a "sabatical year" inside it.

:rofl:  that has cheered me up

Fill it with concrete....



On a serious note, would it do any good, Mick, if Catholic Cyberforum members emailed the Bishop?

mick

Aug, 10:00 PM

rose that is a fantastic website link, patrick that is a very kind offer, i will put it to my ex parish priest who is unofficially helping us, i do hope that the polish community stand with us in this, many of us dug deep by donating clothes and food for them, also i used to take some to the housing office and help them fill in forms for the housing application, so i hope in our hour of need they come to the rescue

Alan E

Aug, 10:00 PM

Quote:

 

they say they cannot knock the building down, but that they can convert into flats. also a developer has bought the spare land and pub that sits behind our site.

Mick they cannot convert the Church to flats if in so doing they destroy the character of the building.

What about the stained glass and in particular a war memorial in stained glass. Such a window would have been paid for by donations. Were such donations made in perpetuity?

Are any remains interred within the Church? Or in the grounds (in The spare land) in particular.

Could your local Historical Association gude you in the right direction to obtain the right answers.

Is it possible to get a listing for the stained glass windows.


Write to the Bishops asking for answers to your various concerns.

Maybe what is needed is restructuring of the Diocesan Finances. one Diocese I know of substantially reduced their Annual interest Liabilities by a system called offset Banking.

make your Bishop aware of the fact that with the developments taking place within the Parish it is very important to protect the Church for future generations.How appalling to think that their would be no Catholic presence in the future.

Rose of York

Aug, 10:28 PM

The parish priest of St Peter the Apostle Parish

Royal Leamington Spa, in a parish newsletter dated February 2005

I would like to inform you of a venture that the parish is about to embark upon in the very near future involving large capital expenditure. In previous general parish meetings it has been discussed but only now are things beginning to move since we cannot delay it any further.

When the organ was tuned for Christmas, the tuners informed us of the dangerous state of the electrics of the instrument and what a fire hazard it is now posing. The church has already been severely damaged by a fire caused by an organ - we do not want history to repeat itself! To correct this in the present instrument and to give it a necessary re-build will cost in the region of £100,000. During the course of the last six months, different organ builders have been consulted, all of whom have said this would be a waste of money as our present instrument is not worth such expenditure. The numerous quotes for a replacement with a new pipe organ range from £350,000 - £500,000. Obviously, as desirable as a new pipe organ may be, the price is out of the question. This being so, I have looked at the possibilities of a new digital organ and have been quoted for an instrument suitable for a church such as ours a price which is much more acceptable and within our means: £48,495. This is no small sum, but far more reasonable than anything else. Having placed this before the Diocesan Treasurer, he has given us permission to place an order. Obviously, with the Church being a Grade II* listed building, other permissions have to be obtained from the Historic Churches Commission and the Victorian Society, but since the present organ case will only be modified then there should be little problem in obtaining the mandate to go ahead.

http://www.stpeterapostle.org/notices/current.php

Interesting!!!

Rose of York

Aug, 08:55 PM

This discussion slipped onto page 2, so in case nobody noticed it:

A church organ is beyond repair.  The parish priest has to consult civil authorities to get their permission to replace it with a modern organ, not a traditional pipe organ.

Mick, what sort of organ does your church have?  I bet its a Victorian pipe organ.  How does the law in Scotland view the possibility of such an instrument being ripped out so the building can be converted to residential?

Just a wee thought.

PJD

Aug, 06:23 PM

Does this come under this, I mean...

What is the position of private chapels, or house Masses, or even group ownership of building set aside for Catholic social/Mass use.

PJD

mick

Aug, 07:46 PM

i vaguely remember that the organ is possibly german or austrian and does sound awsome when it is used it was recently repaired and they had to wait months for the repair due to a lack of skilled tradesmen, it is as old as the church if not older, so we may be able to use this as wel lthanks rose

Rose of York

Sep 6 2006, 07:22 AM

Rev. John Geddes

Rector of Scalan

The time by the goodness of God will come, when the Catholic religion will again flourish in Scotland; and then, when posterity shall enquire, with a laudable curiosity, by what means any spark of the true faith were preserved in these dismal times of darkness and error, Scalan and other colleges will be mentioned with veneration, and all that will be learned concerning them, will be recorded with care.

http://www.scalan.co.uk/scalannews30.htm

tomais

Sep 7 2006, 07:53 PM

Mick.you can hide behind anonymoty, but to properly address this isuue one requires more factal information.
Parish would be a start.
Not to put a dampner on your concern, you are not isolated, but as with all such issues, religious or commercial the proper all over outlines are necessary for considered opinions.
Tomais in a sunny Capital

mick

Sep, 11:21 AM

there have been none at the moment, one of the local action groups for the area also wants to help retain the church, we have been able to borrow a retired lawyer from another parish, and a proposed action plan has been sent tp the bishop as well as personal letters, he has so far responded to the letters and still awaiting rescue plans response, the meeting to decide the parish future is next month

mick

Sep, 07:26 PM

hi rose, as of yet we have had no response from the bishop regarding our action plan, we are trying to get a stay of execution to give us more time to raise funds etc, we are also demanding a meeting with father  to gives us back our sunday mass, we have been doing a head count at the other catholic parishes of our old parishoners i counted 20 including myself at another church,  there was 30 at the cathedral, and 15 at the saturday mass, that leaves between 40 and 60 odd parishoners who now no longer attend church ( most of our parishoners have saturday as a day of employment ), not to mention the incoming east europeans who don't know there is a catholic church in our town, we feel that this amount of lapsed parishoners is a direct result of this priests actions of moving our sunday service and that the loss of these parishoners is unacceptable and was avoidable,
i will post any info that we get from the bishop when he replies,
regards
michael

Michael

Oct 19 2006, 03:23 PM

if it is any consolation rose i'm also guilty of pride, i'm proud of all the hard work and advice you have given someone you haven't met, thank you
michael

Patrick

Oct 19 2006, 03:33 PM

I''m proud of you both!

This is absolutely brilliant news!  :D

Michael

Oct 17 2006, 11:13 PM

good news, our parish has been saved from closure thanks for everyones prayers and help especially rose of york, the details are still a bit sketchy just now and we are still fighting for a sunday service, the only person who doesn't seem happy about it is our parish priest, hopefully he can be moved