Advent

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Advent
Topic Started: Tuesday, 28. November 2006, 17:41 (464 Views)
Poesy	Tuesday, 28. November 2006, 17:41 Post #1
Posts: 482 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 26, 2006	It is interesting to note that - 1. Only St. Matthew's Gospel refers to the 'Wise Men' from the East. 2. There is no reference to the number of Wise Men. The early Church Father Origen is apparently the first authority we have, in tradition that there were three wise men. Also by tradition they were not only wise men, meaning probably men of science, particularly astronomy, but also kings in their own right. They are not referred to again of course, following their encounter with the Incarnate Word, and they cleverly return home wherever that might be by a different route. They oddly parallel the Annunciation where Our Lady has an encounter with the Archangel, they then in turn have an encounter with the Infant Son of God. I think it is interesting that we have men of science who are also believers and it adds an extra dimension to faith, when science today is so agnostic . '
	Domine Jesu, noverim me .


Gerard	Tuesday, 28. November 2006, 19:06 Post #2
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Poesy Yes. Actually the Magi were more into astrology than astronomy and alchemy than science but, to be fair, science didnt happen for another 1500 years. Some think the Magi were Zoroastrian priests. FWIW I am a university scientist with more than 50 published research papers. Not only do I belive but, as you have noticed, I am a charismatic believer. Miracles, Tongues, Prophecy, the lot! Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Poesy	Tuesday, 28. November 2006, 19:24 Post #3
Posts: 482 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 26, 2006	Gerard Nov 28 2006, 07:06 PM Poesy Yes. Actually the Magi were more into astrology than astronomy and alchemy than science but, to be fair, science didnt happen for another 1500 years. Some think the Magi were Zoroastrian priests. FWIW I am a university scientist with more than 50 published research papers. Not only do I belive but, as you have noticed, I am a charismatic believer. Miracles, Tongues, Prophecy, the lot! Gerry Thanks for that Gerry, but I think we have to be a little bit careful in simply assuming that what we know of as science came in with the scientific revolution of the 17th century. There were important medieval scientists , like Albertus Magnus and the Gospel passage refers to the Magi looking at the stars, so yes there may have been a bit of astrology , but they were clearly quite advanced scientifically on the motions of heavenly bodies. Wasn't it Newton who spent almost as much time on the chronology of Armaggedon as on problems of gravity, etc. Nice to learn that you are a scientist. '
	Domine Jesu, noverim me .


Eve	Friday, 1. December 2006, 15:05 Post #4
Admin/Moderator Posts: 658 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 25, 2006	Poesy Nov 28 2006, 05:41 PM I think it is interesting that we have men of science who are also believers and it adds an extra dimension to faith, when science today is so agnostic . ' I would go so far as to say a proportion of scientists are not only Agnostic, they are anti-God. What is science giving us: ability to murder a man, by radiation. screening of babies so the "undesirable" can be eliminated spying on peoples' private lives. A supermarket loyalty card is the basis of your personal profile. They analyse whether you have children or grandchildren, by the frequency of buying baby products. That said science has made good progress in medical treatment.
	Senior Moderator/Administrator


Gerard	Friday, 1. December 2006, 15:27 Post #5
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Eve, Are you serious? or just rtying to wind me up?? You dont need science to kill someone all you need is a stone (and who made those?) Without science we could not feed the current population of the UK. this relies on selective plant breeding (Biology) pesticides to kill off bugs and insects (and in case you are wondering organic food will not produce enough to feed us either). And preservatives to keep it fresh (chemistry) and fridges for same (physics). And thats just to feed us. Our clothes are synthetic and it is science that gives us the colours also. "Things" are seldom good or bad in themselves. its how people use them that produces the good or bad. A stone can be used to kill for murder or kill an animal to obtain food. An atom may be split to destroy a city or to provide a city with electricity. Science is neutral. A God fearing scientist uses it to understand Creation (Science is God's "other book" and to help his fellow man. Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Eve	Friday, 1. December 2006, 15:35 Post #6
Admin/Moderator Posts: 658 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 25, 2006	Gerard Dec 1 2006, 03:27 PM Eve, Are you serious? or just rtying to wind me up?? Gerry No. My words were addressed to all, after I had read all the posts on the thread. All knowledge can and is used for good or for evil.
	Senior Moderator/Administrator


Patrick	Friday, 1. December 2006, 15:39 Post #7
Administrator Posts: 3,629 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 25, 2006	Gerard Dec 1 2006, 03:27 PM Our clothes are synthetic and it is science that gives us the colours also. I thought Cotton and silk were natural. I know Nylon and other materials are synthetic.



Rose of York	Friday, 1. December 2006, 15:52 Post #8
Administrator Posts: 14,540 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Gerard Dec 1 2006, 03:27 PM And thats just to feed us. Our clothes are synthetic and it is science that gives us the colours also. Gerry Having some knowledge of the textile trade I confirm that dying is one of the most highly skilled jobs in the woollen industry. ICI Huddersfield used to send the dye to the mills in the West Riding Heavy Woollen District. If today's production of spun wool or mixed thread is simply dyed, without meticulous care, the resultant colour will not be quite the same as that in the previous batch of thread. The reason is, the chemistry of wool from one flock of sheep differs from that of another flock. It gets even more complicated in the shoddy and mungo mills, where mixtures of cotton, wool and synthetics all need to be dyed the precise colour of the goods advertised. To bring this back to the subject of Advent, I see in the Nativity story the symbolism of wise men, possibly Royal, and uneducted men, shepherds, being equally important in the eyes of God, both being given knowledge according to their abilities to receive it.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Gerard	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:00 Post #9
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Eve, We agree then on the neutrality. Its how its used. Patrick, Yes. is there much silk in your wardrobe? Cotton, yes, lots in my wardrobe (also wool) but I am an old guy and I seek out natural fibres. Young peoples clothes are mostly polyester and nylon. But what has science given us? well, besides food, clothes, medicine, anesthetics, surgery, buildings, cars, trains, areoplanes, paper, radio, TV, telephones, computers, expected lifespans in excess of 70 years, low infant mortality,....... not much.
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Rose of York	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:04 Post #10
Administrator Posts: 14,540 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Gerard I am not attacking scientists. I am sitting here using a computer and have often wondered how some person used pieces of plastic and metal to enable us to do this. Chemicals keep sewers free of bad diseases. Chemists gave us gas for fuel. Chemicals keep my loo clean. Chemicals give me fuel for my car. Now please may we discuss Advent?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Gerard	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:07 Post #11
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Rose, I was writing as you were posting. In the symbolism I see: Shepherds first. These were the most despised of all. I think they were barred from the Temple but would need to check. They were thought of as the lowest of the low. God has a special place for the poor and marginalised. Magi - they might have been kings but I see gentiles pagan priests and magicians the "wise men" of the gentiles recognised the Messiah whereas the Scribes, Pharasees and Levites did not. Note that the magi went to see Jesus. Herod called in the jewish priests and scholars and asked them where the Messiah was to be born. they knew - Bethlehem. But they did not seem to go there..... Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Eve	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:08 Post #12
Admin/Moderator Posts: 658 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 25, 2006	Rose of York Dec 1 2006, 04:04 PM Gerard I am not attacking scientists. Neither was I. Advent used to be a time of preparation and fasting. Today me email box is full of emails from: Tesco offering half price turkeys Mail order clothing offering party wear PC World offering goods that I might buy cheaper after Christmas. Toys. LET US PRAY
	Senior Moderator/Administrator


Gerard	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:23 Post #13
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	All, And I was not upset - just took the opportunity to say that without science we would starve. As for the commercialism yes its deadly. Did you see (on TV) at Christmas time last year "Grumpy Old Ladies"? It was female celebs bemoaning Christmas time and all the anxiety and brouhaha. At one point Sheila hancock said "the only people to get something out of Christmas are religious people" She was so right! Our PP even used it in his Christmas mass sermon. For us (wife and self) we get caught up in the busyness and frustration getting everything ready but at 6pm as the Vigil Mass starts all that business just stops - suddenly its gone - and a peace descends and Christmas has started. Its incredible and happens every year. Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Rose of York	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:29 Post #14
Administrator Posts: 14,540 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	My crib will be in the front window, for all to see. It should go there on the First Sunday of Advent, but I am making a statement and seeing to it today. Some people a few doors away "got no time for religion" but their decorations are going up, right now. Reindeers on the roof, snowmen on the verandah, Santa (in octuplicate) all over the place.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Gerard	Friday, 1. December 2006, 16:34 Post #15
Posts: 3,105 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Good idea Rose, hope its a big one :D We make our statement simply by keeping our tree up till the Epiphany. In doing so we are the last house with Christmas lights in the window for miles around (and we know many of our neighbours who are catholics). Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


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