| We hope you enjoy your visit! You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harasment, and crude or sexually-explicit language. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| The Mass and how it is celebrated -Rites & rites. ; The differing, traditions Rites and Uses." | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Sunday, 5. November 2006, 15:43 (1,916 Views) | |
| KatyA | Friday, 3. July 2009, 10:50 Post #91 |
|
Administrator
|
Oddly enough, I came to the conclusion yesterday that this thread is mis-titled, covering as it does, different Rites as well as the Ordinary and Extraordinary use of the Roman Rite, but I couldn't think of a more appropriate title. "Different Rites and different uses of the Roman Rite" is the best I could do. If nobody comes up with a better title,I'll change it later today. KatyA |
  | |
 |
 
|
| Deleted User | Friday, 3. July 2009, 11:28 Post #92 |
|
Deleted User
|
Just to add to the confussion sometimes we use the word Rite as abreviation for Ritual and so we have the Rite of Baptisum and the Rite of Funerals when it would actually be more accurate to say the funeral ritual or the Baptismal Ritual. In the sae way in the military it is only senior officers who are meant to carry their title/rank into retirment so if you see someone styled Capt Blogs Rtd. you would be correct to assume that they were a retired naval Captain however since the first world war it became popularly accepted for retired Army Captains to use their rank in retirment. even though they are 3 ranks below a naval Capt. All things are confused by popular useage. So people should be excused for confusing the two rather than considered foolish. Perhaps life would be simpler if a more distinctive termanology could be employed but usualy the context gives the clue, if you understand the context... oh it is no wonder people give up. |
|
|
|
| Derekap | Friday, 3. July 2009, 16:02 Post #93 |
|
Thank you Penfold for a very interesting contribution. I was very intrigued by the following excerpt: "All of this is a disservice to the majority who choose to worship according to their own preference be it in the OF or the EF. The Tridentine Mass was introduced post reformation and was never officially promulgated in England until 1850 and the restoration of the hierachy, and so traditionalists should really demand the restoration of the Sarum Use, which incidentally forms the basIs of the Book of Common Prayer in the Anglican Community. The Church of England when it reformed its liturgy and introduced the Common Worship book they used the OF as the basis of their new celebrations of the Mass, bypassing Trent altogether" Referring to another point I presume Ampleforth Abbey has a working agreement with the Bishop of Middlesbrough regarding the supply of monks or visiting monks to the Catholic Churches in the surrounding villages and small towns and probably the new Convent of Benedictine Nuns nearby. |
| Derekap | |
|
|
|
| Quicunque vult | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 14:42 Post #94 |
|
Another common misconception is that the Tridentine Mass was a new form of Mass. It was rather a standardisation of the different local Uses of the Roman Rite in use before the Council of Trent, some of them very ancient, one of which was the Sarum Use. The Tridentine Mass is very similar to the Sarum Use. Most of the elements are the same, including for example the Canon of the Mass (what is now the First Eucharistic Prayer in the Ordinary Form). To say that the Sarum Use forms the basis of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer may be true in one sense, but the latter omits most of the Catholic theology and ritual while introducing some entirely new protestant material. The Tridentine Mass is much, much closer to the Sarum Use. The term "Tridentine Mass" is a misnomer. We are now being encouraged to call it the "Gregorian Mass", as in most respects it is the same form of Mass used by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th Century. The Council of Trent did not overrule all local variations. The Sarum Use could have been retained if England had remained a Catholic country, but in practice the priests who were trained abroad used the "Tridentine" form. Reintroduction of the Sarum Use was considered when the Hierarchy was restored in the 19th Century, but the decision was made to continue using the "Tridentine" form. QV |
|
|
|
| Deleted User | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 15:18 Post #95 |
|
Deleted User
|
Thanks QV and I shall use the term "Gregorian Mass" since you have enlightened me that is the prefered and more fitting title. As I say I have nothing against the use of the "Gregorian Mass" it is just that it is not what I have been trained in or am familiar with. |
|
|
|
| Clare | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 19:08 Post #96 |
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman
|
Please, not "Usus Antiquior"! |
|
S.A.G. My attempt at a blog. | |
|
|
|
| O'Ratty | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 19:14 Post #97 |
|
In Orthodoxy, the "Tridentine Mass" is known as "The Divine Liturgy of St Gregory the Great". |
|
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
|
|
|
| Derekap | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 21:09 Post #98 |
|
'Please, not "Usus Antiquior"!' I thought you were a lover of Latin, Clare. |
| Derekap | |
|
|
|
| OsullivanB | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 21:11 Post #99 |
|
Not for using or understanding - just for worshipping |
|
|
|
| Clare | Saturday, 4. July 2009, 22:35 Post #100 |
|
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman
|
I just think "Usus Antiquior" sounds pretentious, is all! |
|
S.A.G. My attempt at a blog. | |
|
|
|
| Ned | Sunday, 12. July 2009, 19:43 Post #101 |
|
Quite so, QV, but I think that I remember reading somewhere, a long time ago, that there were two distinctive features that went with the Sarum style (that is the 'english' style ) of the Mass: 1. The lavishness of the robes, the sacred vessels and the church-furnishings. (Carlo and Clare would have loved it - Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell found looting it very profitable). 2. The prayers that were said BEFORE the priest went on the altar to say Mass (which became the Morning Prayers in the CofE's Book of Common Prayer). As an english identity had slowly coalesced after the Norman Conquest there were still all sorts of divisions in the Church and in society as a whole. Most parishes, and a few monasteries were 'english' and used the Sarum Mass, while most monasteries and the posher parishes used rites of Mass that were either after the french style or else were particular to a Religious Order. And there was a political aspect to it. Don't forget that Henry VIII had abolished slavery/serfdom. I'm reminded of a conversation I once had with an old Danziger - oops, sorry, an old Pole from Gdansk. He told me that he'd always seen himself as Polish and that in 1939 he'd been arrested by the (German) Danzig authorities the day the war started. I asked him why he'd been arrested, since I knew he was bi-lingual as all the danzigers were, he spoke english with a strong german accent, and a more prussian-looking man you could not imagine. And there were plenty of pro-German Catholics. 'Ach!' he said,'But they knew WHICH catholic church I went to.' That, I think, QV, was the significance of the Sarum rite. It was a symbol of the divisions in English society. Edited by Ned, Sunday, 12. July 2009, 19:46.
|
|
|
|
| CARLO | Sunday, 12. July 2009, 21:57 Post #102 |
|
Run it up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes it O'Ratty!  Hagios O Theos! CARLO |
| Judica me Deus | |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · The Mass , Liturgy, Sacraments, Priesthood · Next Topic » | |
9:16 AM Nov 23