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The Mass and how it is celebrated -Rites & rites. ; The differing, traditions Rites and Uses."
Topic Started: Sunday, 5. November 2006, 16:43 (2,333 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Apr 7 2007, 03:41 PM
No Clare, but I don't think it was Tridentine. Surely only a Holy Mass can be Tridentine?

It's a liturgy, and it's in the same missal that contains Tridentine Rite Masses!

It is a Tridentine Rite Good Friday liturgy, aka Mass of the Presanctified!

I ask you!

Clare.
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Derekap
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Clare. I can't answer because I don't know what you're asking?
Derekap
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CARLO
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Derekap
Apr 7 2007, 09:21 PM
Clare.  I can't answer because I don't know what you're asking?

:wacko: Keep quiet then!

Libera nos
Deliver us


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Derekap
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Nellyk wrote:

"Catholic I thought means universal? and that then leads me to think that there can be variations in form of worship... consider all the different Rites the provision of Mass in different Languges,my worry is that this may lead to divisions."

There are at least a score of Catholic Rites in various languages - all owing allegiance to the Pope. Some date back earlier than the Tridentine or New Rites.
Derekap
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CARLO
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Derekap
Apr 10 2007, 08:45 PM

There are at least a score of Catholic Rites in various languages - all owing allegiance to the Pope. Some date back earlier than the Tridentine or New Rites.

Derek

I was 'brought up' in one of those rites pre-V2 as well as learning the Roman Rite for 'visiting priests'.

Sadly the keepers of the alternative rite decided to abandon it in 1970 to conform with the Novus Ordo.

A great shame.

De profundis
Out of the depths


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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In April 2009, the Pope entrusted to the Monastery of San Benedetto in Norcia the special apostolate of the celebration of the Holy
Eucharist “in utroque usu”, that is, both in the ordinary as well as the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, in collaboration
with the Holy See and in communion with the diocesan bishop. The Monks hope to post a daily recording of the sung Conventual Mass in the extraordinary form. OSBNorcua
Also available on the website is the text of an interview with the Prior, Fr Cassian Folsom, OSB. concerning the use of both rites
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The ordinary form stresses such elements as the participation of the faithful, the use of the vernacular, the ongoing development of the liturgy by the addition of new saints to the calendar, etc.: these are all very important. At the risk of oversimplifying, I would say that the ordinary form stresses rational understanding, speaking in prose, as it were. The extraordinary form provides rich food for the intellect also, but relies heavily on gesture, symbolism, intuition, silence, ritual action without words, speaking in poetry, you might say. Man knows both rationally and intuitively. He needs both prose and poetry. If the two usages, like two different cultures, can patiently live with each other over time, they can become friends.


Seems reasonable to me

KatyA
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Thursday, 2. July 2009, 13:35
In April 2009, the Pope entrusted to the Monastery of San Benedetto in Norcia the special apostolate of the celebration of the Holy
Eucharist “in utroque usu”, that is, both in the ordinary as well as the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, in collaboration
with the Holy See and in communion with the diocesan bishop. The Monks hope to post a daily recording of the sung Conventual Mass in the extraordinary form. OSBNorcua
I cannot understand why one monastery has been given a special apostolate for the purpose of celebrating Mass both in the ordinary as well as the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite, in collaboration with the Holy See and in communion with the diocesan. Is that not supposed to happen all over the world?

Before anybody tells me it does not happen everywhere in the world, I know, but that is not my point, I just don't understand why it is a special apostolate.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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KatyA
Thursday, 2. July 2009, 13:35
OSBNorcua
Also available on the website is the text of an interview with the Prior, Fr Cassian Folsom, OSB. concerning the use of both rites
Quote:
 
The ordinary form stresses such elements as the participation of the faithful, the use of the vernacular, the ongoing development of the liturgy by the addition of new saints to the calendar, etc.: these are all very important. At the risk of oversimplifying, I would say that the ordinary form stresses rational understanding, speaking in prose, as it were. The extraordinary form provides rich food for the intellect also, but relies heavily on gesture, symbolism, intuition, silence, ritual action without words, speaking in poetry, you might say. Man knows both rationally and intuitively. He needs both prose and poetry. If the two usages, like two different cultures, can patiently live with each other over time, they can become friends.


The Prior says "If the two usages, like two different cultures, can patiently live with each other over time, they can become friends." We all know it takes a long time for two cultures to learn to live happily together.

Is there any likelihood that some time in the future, the elements of the Ordinary Forum will be incorporated into the Extraordinary Form and vice versa?

The participation of the faithful, the use of the vernacular, the ongoing development of the liturgy by the addition of new saints to the calendar, etc incorporated into Tridentine Mass? I can see that happneing with readers and cantors, but unlikely regarding Extraordinary Ministers and the vernacular.

Heavily reliance on gesture, symbolism, intuition, silence, ritual action without words, speaking in poetry, incorporated into the Ordinary Form? Yes please. They give one a sense of the sacred, I for one would look forward to that.

Finally I do wish the powers that revert to using the original name for the traditional liturgy used in Latin Masses for the Roman Rite. Mass in the Extraordinary Form is such a clumsy mouthful, what was wrong with calling it The Tridentine Mass?
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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I presume Holy Mass in the vernacular is the normal (ordinary) custom, however, with approval of the Vatican and no disapproval of the local Bishop on genuine gounds, Tridentine Holy Mass In Latin can be offered - hence Extra Ordinary. This is a rare usage of the word 'extraordinary'. I tend to agree with Rose that our terminology is a bit cumbersome and varied. This is probaby due to insistance that both OF and EF are the Roman Rite not Roman Rites.

But of course to the clerics of The SSPX and their lay supporters The Tridentine Holy Mass is the norm (ordinary).
Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 2. July 2009, 16:06.
Derekap
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CARLO
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Derekap
Thursday, 2. July 2009, 16:05
... I tend to agree with Rose that our terminology is a bit cumbersome and varied. This is probaby due to insistance that both OF and EF are the Roman Rite not Roman Rites.

But of course to the clerics of The SSPX and their lay supporters The Tridentine Holy Mass is the norm (ordinary).
I suppose the Holy Father is trying to let down gently those who thought that out of tune guitars and dancing down the aisle would last 100 years!

Libera nos
Deliver us



CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Rose of York
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CARLO
Thursday, 2. July 2009, 21:34
I suppose the Holy Father is trying to let down gently those who thought that out of tune guitars and dancing down the aisle would last 100 years!
Stirring it, CARLO?

:cook:

Out of tune organs and croaking from the pews have stood the test of time. We all do our best, each to his own way.
Keep the Faith!

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Quicunque vult

I think this is a very encouraging development, and hopefully one that in due course will be widely emulated. The EF needs to be retained as the gold standard, and should be widely available, but is probably not practical for everyday use. The need is very much for the OF to be influenced by the EF, and eventually we can have the sort of reformed liturgy that the Vatican II Fathers sought rather than the one that is all too often on offer today.

QV
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Much confusion is caused by people misunderstanding the difference between a Rite and a Use.

The Catholic church is the Universal Church and the Pope is the Supreme Pontiff but there are subdivisions within the universal church that are fully in communion with the Papacy in Rome but independent canonically and liturgically from each other.
As Patriarch of the West the Pope is also head of the Latin Rite, which is colloquially referred to as the Roman Catholic Church. There are also a variety of Eastern Patriarchies and Metropolitans that have their own Rites. In the UK one will commonly find Ukrainian and Byzantine rite Catholics and a small selection of others.
The Latin Rite is further divided into spetialist groups and traditions who enjoy a limited autonomy from their regional hierarchy but are still canonically subject to the Latin Rite Code of cannon Law but may have liturgical autonomy or particular canonical privileges which exempt them from a particular rule of the general Code of Canon Law.
For example the Abbot of a monastery such as Ampleforth is not subject to the day to day administrative authority of the Local Bishop in Middlesbrough and the territories and monks under the Abbots Authority are also not bound by the local bishop but by their Abbot who acts as their ordinary. In the Abbey they tend to use the OF of the Mass but could use any form or Use that the Abbot General has decreed suitable for use within the Benedictine community. They have their own version of the Office that differs from that used by most diocesan priests and laity. On a Sundays most of us go to mass were the language used is English some go to mass and the language used is Latin and some on particular occasions go to mass in The English or Sarum Use and hear Mass in latin and some go to mass in Polish or Italian or the EF but all are going to mass in the Latin Rite. What differs in some cases is the Use not the Rite.

There are people who benefit from the mischievous confusion caused by suggesting that the Tridentine Use is the Tridentine Rite. If it is a separate rite then who recognises it and who is their Patriarch. Those opposing the Tridentine mass may find it convenient to suggest that it is part of a separate rite then by what authority are they operating and since they are not part of the Latin Rite they should be excommunicated, Similarly there are those who like to suggest that the OF is actually a separate Rite from the Tridentine and so refuse to recognise the authority of priests bishops and even the Pope because they have betrayed the true church and entered a heretical new Rite.

All of this is a disservice to the majority who choose to worship according to their own preference be it in the OF or the EF. The Tridentine Mass was introduced post reformation and was never officially promulgated in England untill 1850 and the restoration of the hierachy, and so traditionalists should really demand the restoration of the Sarum Use, which incidentally forms the bases of the Book of Common Prayer in the Anglican Community. The Church of England when it reformed its liturgy and introduced the Common Worship book they used the OF as the basis of their new celebrations of the Mass, bypassing Trent altogether.
When the Pope entrusted to the Monastery of San Benedetto in Norcia the special apostolate he was doing two things. First he was underlining the fact that the OF and The EF are both Uses within the Latin Rite and their use is not contradictory to the liturgical Norms of the Latin Rite. Secondly by establishing the Monastery as a special apostolate he was removing it from administrative interference by its local Bishop and the Superior of their Order. In other words only a Papal Decree can remove the apostolate from the Monastery.
The Tridentine Use was confused by the Imperial Powers in the Imperial Age as being the Only way acceptable to worship God and so anything that was not Roman was suppressed and at best discouraged. The events in China, South America and Japan, being some of the more shameful misuses of Empire builders hiding behind Ecclesiastical Authority. ( IT Would distract from the thread to go into detail but see the other thread on Empires started a few weeks ago.) For this reason the reformers of Vat II were particularly keen to see the Tridentine Use replaced. The latin mass was never suppressed or outlawed it was the Tridentine use that was restricted, never banned. In popular folk law, however it suits extremists on both sides to misrepresent the facts and claim that the Latin mass was banned and that the Latin Mass was the Tridentine Mass that was the Latin Rite and so on round the mulberry bush we go. On the other side claiming that the Tridentine mass was Banned made lfe easier than for lazy parish priests than explaining the changes and for extremists to accuse those who prefer the Tridentine use of at best disloyalty and at worst Schism. The situation is acute in England because of the sensitivities between the Roman Catholics and the Anglo Catholics meant that England was always viewed as a special case and Cardinal Hume had secured a greater degree of flexibility and discretion for Bishops in granting permission for the continued celebration of the Tridentine Use in England and Wales than could be found elsewhere in Europe or other parts of the World.
I was ordained post Vat II and so although I have hazy memories of the Tridentine mass as a child I have never been trained or acquainted with the Tridentine Use and so will not say mass according to the Tridentine use but I can say mass in Latin. I choose not to since I pray in English not Latin. I do however encourage the use of Latin in the Mass and often have the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei sung in Latin.
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Oddly enough, I came to the conclusion yesterday that this thread is mis-titled, covering as it does, different Rites as well as the Ordinary and Extraordinary use of the Roman Rite, but I couldn't think of a more appropriate title. "Different Rites and different uses of the Roman Rite" is the best I could do. If nobody comes up with a better title,I'll change it later today.
KatyA
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Just to add to the confussion sometimes we use the word Rite as abreviation for Ritual and so we have the Rite of Baptisum and the Rite of Funerals when it would actually be more accurate to say the funeral ritual or the Baptismal Ritual. In the sae way in the military it is only senior officers who are meant to carry their title/rank into retirment so if you see someone styled Capt Blogs Rtd. you would be correct to assume that they were a retired naval Captain however since the first world war it became popularly accepted for retired Army Captains to use their rank in retirment. even though they are 3 ranks below a naval Capt. All things are confused by popular useage. So people should be excused for confusing the two rather than considered foolish. Perhaps life would be simpler if a more distinctive termanology could be employed but usualy the context gives the clue, if you understand the context... oh it is no wonder people give up.
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