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The Mass and how it is celebrated -Rites & rites. ; The differing, traditions Rites and Uses."
Topic Started: Sunday, 5. November 2006, 16:43 (2,337 Views)
nelly k

Iam getting more and more curious, and Ill need a bit of guidance.
Did the Tridentine/Latin Mass come about after the Council of Trent?
The Priest facing in the same direction as the Laity? ie all facing the Altar, when did that come about?, I think I know why, but not sure what went before,
I personely want to see the Eucarist, may be Iam to much of a post V2 person (cant help when I was born) , as I think when it was hidden from view and the expressions and manners of the Priest were not seen /witnessed, the ridiculing of this Sacrafice being magic of sorts was given room to prevail and was something ordinary Catholics could not argue or comprehend ie defend. nelly
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CARLO
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Nelly

This link to the web site of the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales should help answer some of your questions. Have a good look around the site as it contains a lot of very useful information that I'm sure will interest you.

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/msshst.htm

Please do not believe these 'old wives tales' about the Mass pre V2 e.g.

"Nobody understod what was going on" (This is sheer rot - Catholics pre V2 were not simpletons!)

"The fact that the Priest had his back to the congregation helped perpetuate the myth that he was engaged in some sort of trickery" (More stuff and nonsense. The sort of crank that believes this is not likely to be put off just because he/she can see the hands of the Priest during the consecration).

Pax


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Deacon Robert
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I don't care which type Mass is celebrated. I also sometimes attend a Melkite Mass when I am not scheduled at my assigned Parish, I love them all. The only thing I ask of a celebrant is that they approach the altar and serve with dignity and reverence. At the noon Mass today I felt I was at a drive through like Mc Donalds ( the Pastor had some place to go- not church business). Whether as Mass takes 10 minuits or two hours it can be done well, but everyone can tell when it is just done to get it over with.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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nelly k

Carlo I dont believe the old wives tales, fortunatly I was brought up better. I admire what you do to bring the Latin Mass to Catholics, I often feel its some what elitist, though not intended, it seems because this Rite was removed from very ordinary Parishes, and ordinary Catholics post V2 were left out unless you were educated and able it was lost... so keep going it should be available ...
I am getting little bits of remenent of Latin and the Conduct of the Latin Mass. I was noted on here about my daughter the older one , who has twice been to Latin/tridentine Rite I personally saw no problem with this, but coming across this site and the other one I learnt a lot more, and it was disappionting to here my daughters view of these Masses , I should have known more and taken her myself.
The Mass last week did have bits of Latin and the Insence was out , I also noted the way a Server held the Priests Garments... my youngest is really fidgety in Mass tonight she had a terrible job with the giggles, last week she was realy well behaved and attentive , now maybe its just coincidence. I dont know , I just want her to apprieciate her Birthright and understand how fortunate she is... nelly
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Eve
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I have transferred a lot of postings into the discussion about Reverence at Mass and others into Sacrament of Reconciliation. They were taking this topic off track.
and

Nelly is looking for knowledge about the various Rites of Holy Mass. I personally find this thread informative. Shall we keep it for that subjct?
Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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Rose of York
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Who were the Orthodox bishops at the Second Vatican Council? I think they were Greek, and possibly a Russian Orthodox bishop too. Would they vote or were they observers, or advisors? Would they have had a say in the New Rite of Holy Mass?
Keep the Faith!

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CARLO
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nelly k
Nov 12 2006, 10:00 PM
Carlo I dont believe the old wives tales, fortunatly I was brought up better. I admire what you do to bring the Latin Mass to Catholics, I often feel its some what elitist, though not intended, it seems because this Rite was removed from very ordinary Parishes, and ordinary Catholics post V2 were left out unless you were educated and able it was lost... so keep going it should be available ...
............

Nelly

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.

I do very little. It is those Priests and others such as the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales that work so hard to keep the flame of the Tridentine Mass burning that deserve our praise and support.

Let us pray that many more will join them and follow them in the years to come.


Oremus
Let us pray


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Rose of York
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CARLO
Nov 13 2006, 11:30 PM
t is those Priests and others such as the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales that work so hard to keep the flame of the Tridentine Mass burning that deserve our praise and support.

CARLO

Nelly it would be a tragedy if the Tridentine Rite were to be allowed to die out. Due to my situation, in a rural area that has just one Mass each week, I am thankful there is any Mass at all, that I can get to. There are odd occasions when I yearn to attend a Tridentine Mass, just occasionally. Given the choice I would have it in English - but in beautiful, glorious English. The first time we had the translation now in use, I left the church feeling a bit dejected. There is a new translation on the way because the Bishops in the English speaking countries have had to accept they "dumbed it down" when the translation was done, round about 1970.

Some want Tridentine Mass. Some don't. I cannot see the harm in everybody being able to get attend the Mass of their choice if they can get to a city with plenty of churches.

We could do with some Masses with modern music, some Tridentine Masses, and some Folk Masses, plus some with no music at all. Thats my opinion.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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This is a Greek Orthodox Priest offering Mass

Click here

And here is another photo showing a Greek Orthodox priest in very fine vestments. The Greeks like lots of ceremony and ritual.

Click here
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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This thread began with a query about the Syro-Malabar Rite. Quite by chance I came across the October issue of the Shrewsbury Voice which featured an event in Wythenshawe in the Manchester area. Apparently several Indian Catholics have come to live in the area and they now have a priest of their own. They come from the Kerala Province and owe their origin to St Thomas, yes the doubting Thomas, who arrived in AD52. They belong to the Syro-Malabar Rite. Essentially their Rite of Holy Mass is the same as ours. However, the officiating ministers begin by lighting a lamp. This lamp with an empty Cross. represents the Risen Christ. The Roman Rite focuses on the Crucifix and the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ. Their Rite looks to the Risen Christ and the Second Coming. They say the Lord's Prayer at the beginning and repeat it later. The Penetential Rite is just before Holy Communion. Their Rite is much longer which is probably why it is only offered on special occasions. In the meantime they attend Holy Mass in the Rite familiar to us. The occasion referred to was in honour of St Thomas's Feast and attended by about 1,000 people. Deacon Don Baron of the area wrote the report but he didn't say what language is used.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Website of Saint Richard's parish
Chichester

Syro-Malabar Mass at St Richard's

Every month St Richard’s hosts a Mass in the Indian Syro-Malabar rite, attended by our growing community coming originally from Kerala State in South West India.

The liturgy of their Mass is one of the many forms from Eastern communities in full communion with Rome, yet with striking differences in style and content. Its members take pride in their history. They remind us that “St Thomas, one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ, laid foundation to the Syro Malabar Church in AD 52. Syro Malabar Church, having a membership of four million faithful, is the second largest Oriental Catholic Church in the world. With strong devotion and deep rooted spirituality as its trademark, Syro Malabar Church is in full communion with the Church of Rome and forms part of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.

The priest wears the same coloured vestments throughout the year, celebrating the Kingship of Christ.

Today the celebrant is Fr Joseph Kutzhichalil, CMI, who is a member of the Carmelites of Mary Immaculate, which is an Eastern Catholic religious order for men, belonging to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

The reader is Matthew Kumarakom

The congregation play a full part in singing and responding throughout the Mass, in the Malayalam language.

The congregation kneel less often than European Catholics do – in Eastern tradition; their sign of the Cross is different in form. The emphases of their liturgy differ from the Roman – but the elements are the same.

Men and women usually are on separate sides of the church.

They celebrate the martyrdom of St Thomas on 3rd July and it is a day of obligation for the Syro Malabarians. He was speared to death in A.D. 72.
They consider their Syro-Malabar Church to be the most vibrant church in the world!

Even on a wet and chilly May Sunday evening, almost seventy parishioners attended – mainly young people and children – part of our widening community bringing zest and vitality to St Richard’s in their life and worship.


The site is worth looking at, it shows many photos of the Mass, and the congregation. They evoked memories of Mass in England, pre V2. Women to the left, men to the right! They do have a lay reader, and the congregation make the responses. The parts of the liturgy are arranged differently from ours.

The women have all taken the trouble to dress extremely well. Men are dressed fairly casually, but - all are paying attention. The priest's vestments are not quite the same as ours. They are ornate, similar to most vestments pre V2, but instead of a chasuble the priest wears a vestment similar to a cope. Can Carlo or another pre V2 altar boy tell me what it is called? I am sure it was worn at Benediction.



Click here
Keep the Faith!

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CARLO
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Rose of York
Nov, 09:48 PM
Website of Saint Richard's parish
Chichester

The priest's vestments are not quite the same as ours.  They are ornate, similar to most vestments pre V2, but instead of a chasuble the priest wears a vestment similar to a cope.  Can Carlo or another pre V2 altar boy tell me what it is called?  I am sure it was worn at Benediction.
Click here


Looks like a standard cope to me Rose and yes it was worn at Bendiction. A black version was worn at the cemetry for funerals. There were also red, violet and gold versions.

Where has it all gone?


Veritas
Truth

CARLO
:(
Judica me Deus
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nelly k

Rose and Carlo, both as usual good common sense, and Derek thankyou for the info, and all the rest with regards what went before V2, I do think too often we forget that it was not perfect before, and probably your more Traditional and Loyal than most as you stand up for the Church as it is now, warts and all. I am sure you did that in the past as well.
As for my initial question, like what Derek is describing these Priests are visiting our area, and I think within the Church there seems to be so many double standards, it seems to have been quite difficult to practice the Tridentine/Latin Rite, the Liberals who ever they are appear to have made it very akward, then we have the Trads who ever they are, who respect so many of what I would call our Sister Churches ie the Orthodox but are bitterly opposed to the Mass I know and has offered me so much and that upsets me, then we now have a situation, which I think is a good thing, whereby we have Priests from diffrent Countries Cultures who are invited and welcomed, yet there is a slowness to open the Door and make accessable the Tridentine/Latin right.
My Tradition is by date of birth the Novus Ordo, and I was gratefull for the information given by Gerry which helps me to articulate this, also to PJD for his comments some months ago about the Eucharist and the Concecration facing me and others I would hate to loose that period of Mass where the Echarist is before me, and maybe that is what Ecuminism is all about , sharing and respect the many Traditions that have gone on since the time of the Last Supper and its significance for all peoples of all different makeups social as well as Cultural


Deary Me I do go of on one, on this forum, but I do like the space, nelly
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Eve
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nelly k
Nov 15 2006, 06:20 PM
Deary Me I do go of on one, on this forum, but I do like the space, nelly

And we like to read your posts, Nelly.
Howdy Folks. Has anybody seen my husband lately?
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Derekap
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I went into the link given in Rose's contribution on 14 November at 9.48pm. This took me to the parish where the Syro-Malabar Rite is offered. this in turn led me to an article on the Rite in the Catholic Herald. I recommend everyone to read it . A few brief points:

Inside or outside a Syro-Malabar church you see no statues - not even a crucifix!. (I would mention here that I read elsewhere they have a cross but no figure as they concentrate rather on the Resurrection).

The core of the Syro-Malabar is the Resurrection of Christ.

There are no Consecration Words . The Consecration and Transubstantiation is done by the Holy Spirit.

Only 10% of the people receive Holy Communion.

May I repeat this is a a branch of the Church as Catholic as the branch to which we ourselves belong and their Holy Mass may well be much older than the Tridentine Rite. They seem to have a very different attitude and approach to Holy Mass as we have. I hasten to add that I am not in anyway criticising it or suggesting it is wrong. I fully accept their outlook.
Derekap
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