Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harasment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Institute Of The Good Shepherd (gsi); Trouble in Bordeaux
Topic Started: Saturday, 4. November 2006, 17:02 (325 Views)
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
As some of you will be aware, the Pope approved the canonical erection of the Good Shepherd Institute in Bordeaux, France.

The founding members of the GSI were originally priests of the Society of St Pius X.

However, there has been issues with the diocese and the Cardinal - also regarding the impending Motu Proprio regarding the liberalisation of the Tridentine rite of Mass.

The last issue of The Tablet ran this article:

Quote:
 
The Vatican's establishment of an institute for ex-Lefebvrists in Bordeaux, to operate in parallel with the existing Church, has caused deep anger in France. It is a major challenge to the authority of Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard - and to the Church, shaped by the Second Vatican Council'

Hear the word "Bordeaux" and it might well call to mind a good claret - "a beaker full of the warm South" - and accompanying mellow congeniality. But the mood of the Archdiocese of Bordeaux, in south-west France, is anything but congenial at the moment. The unannounced opening of a new pontifical institute, right under the nose of the archbishop himself, has provoked shock and outrage among clergy and laity alike. There have been street demonstrations, priests threatening to resign and a general feeling that Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, Archbishop of Bordeaux and head of the French Bishops' Conference, has been snubbed.

Emotions are running high owing both to the Vatican's seeming "parachuting in" of this new body, and to what that body is seen to represent, which is a hatred of the innovations that followed the Second Vatican Council.

On 8 September the Vatican created the Pontifical Institute of the Good Shepherd for five traditionalist priests - all former followers of Archbishop Lefebvre - which would answer directly to Rome and "not at all to local bishops". On the following Sunday, the institute's new head, Fr Philippe Laguérie, 53, climbed into the pulpit of the Bordeaux Church of St Eloi - a church that the archdiocese confirms he has been occupying illegally for five years - and hailed his "victory". He told his 200-strong congregation, made up principally of young families, that the institute, "especially mandated by Pope Benedict XVI", would celebrate Mass exclusively according to the Tridentine rite, a key Lefebvrist demand. It could also train and ordain seminarians.

Fr Laguérie insisted that no concessions had been made either in liturgy or doctrine and, as for the Second Vatican Council, the new institute "had the obligation to render the authenticity of Catholic doctrine, under the auspices of the Pope", he said. "Why would you wish to give your life to Jesus Christ for such chimeras as dialogue and intercommunal relations and international ecumenism?"

Fr Laguérie mocked the "not so glorious" pastoral policies of the last 30 years that had resulted, he said, in a catastrophic fall in ordinations and baptisms across France. St Eloi would be the prototype of a revival of truly traditional parishes in France and elsewhere.

"Tradition" here means lace, soutanes and mantillas; the old catechism and the priest turning from the faithful to face the altar and God. It stands for fortress Church, a bulwark against a corrupt world, as distinct from the Church of the Second Vatican Council, that seeks to engage with the world.

Fr Laguérie applauds Benedict XVI as a "traditionalist" Pope and dates the former Cardinal Ratzinger's return to the fold to Benedict's speech in December 2005 when he said that Vatican II should not be interpreted as a rupture with the tradition of the Church. In an interview with Le Monde's religious affairs writer, Henri Tincq, he also praised Benedict's recent Regensburg lecture that offended sections of Islam, calling it "a true and powerful discourse".

It is clear that Rome has made important concessions to the ex-Lefebvrists. In order to accelerate a rapprochement, the object seems to be to "jostle" the recalcitrant Lefebvrists themselves, who remain loyal to the schismatic Marcel Lefebvre, whose excommunication was confirmed on 2 July 1988 by Pope John Paul II. These number 460 priests, 178 seminarians, 70 brothers, 133 nuns and 68 oblates, and 150,000 lay faithful in some 50 countries.

For the moment, the Lefebvrists denounce the Vatican's "splinter-group solution" and continue to demand the Tridentine Mass for all Catholics. "It cannot be a privilege reserved for a few," they insist. Fr Laguérie, for his part, predicts that, come November, a papal document will be published that will re-establish the rights of the traditional Mass in all its dignity: that is, it will not be celebrated as a special favour but will be openly available.

Veritatis Splendor (John Paul II's encyclical of 1993) makes clear that division in the Church is a scandal, and this latest Vatican-driven initiative has indeed scandalised many in Bordeaux who dispute whether any meaningful reconciliation has yet been achieved. Bordeaux's council of priests says: "We denounce the absence of information and consultation with the local Church in the creation of this Institute." As the Bordeaux priest Fr Jean-Marie Roumégoux puts it succinctly: "Rome has acted in scorn of the local Church."

Crucially, the Vatican's top-down approach has given the impression that it was unaware of - or ignored - some highly significant local facts. Not only has Fr Laguérie been "squatting" illegally in St Eloi for five years, the archdiocese says, but he's used it as his platform for launching stinging "anathemas" against the local Church - hardly the best way to endear yourself to your neighbours. In a letter penned by Cardinal Ricard and published in the diocesan review, Aquitaine, on 5 October, he reminds the faithful that "it needs the authorisation of the diocesan bishop for any apostolic activity in his diocese".

Also causing alarm are Fr Laguérie's links with the extreme Right. In 1996, in his previous guise as the curé of St-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet in Paris, the beating heart of Lefebvrism in France and another illegally held church, he celebrated the funeral of Paul Touvier, the former Vichy militiaman. Touvier was the first Frenchman to be found guilty of crimes against humanity, notably the multiple murders of Jews and human-rights activists. He evaded arrest for half a century thanks to a network of reactionary and anti-Semitic Catholics across France.

In his widely reported sermon, Fr Laguérie described Touvier as a "delicate, sensitive ... soul", and added: "In the divine courtroom, there will be no media, no headline news ... and no LICRA [the international league against racism and anti-Semitism]." Le Monde reported that he has also advocated voting for the extreme-right Front National party and defended its leader, Jean-Marie Le Pen, when he was condemned for describing the Holocaust as "a detail of history".

This is the man now rehabilitated by the Pope and promoted to head the new institute. "The very name the Good Shepherd is a disgrace, an insult for us," exclaims the archdiocesan priest Hugues Walser. And perhaps no one should feel this more keenly than the Archbishop of Bordeaux himself, Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard.

The cardinal is head of the French Bishops' Conference, and a member of Ecclesia Dei, the pontifical commission charged with reconciling recalcitrant traditionalist groups. Yet he has owned that, although aware that Fr Laguérie was - on his own advice - in negotiations with Rome, he was not informed by the Vatican of the imminent publication of the decree of institution. Many feel that the cardinal has been snubbed. He certainly never wanted a reconciliation with traditionalists without their making concessions on their convictions and practices. His vicar general, Fr Jean Rouet, denounced inaccuracies in the Vatican decree of institution concerning the presumed accord of the cardinal. Rueing the institute's triumphalist rhetoric, he said, "Abbé Laguérie ... has wounded my Church and, if he wishes forgiveness, he must ask for it." Given the institute's direct dependence on the Holy See, there are fears that a sort of parallel Church in Bordeaux has been created.

Cardinal Ricard has expressed doubts over whether the new institute personnel will join him for Holy Week's Chrism Mass (celebrated in the New Rite, of course) when all the priests of the diocese come together. In contrast to Fr Laguérie and his cohorts, cardinal, priests and people proclaim their love of the Second Vatican Council, which has given them "great joy". Fr Rouet has expressed astonishment that the new institute's history of vitriolic attacks on members of the council were not picked up by Rome. Meanwhile in Bordeaux there have been demonstrations and a flurry of letters. In one, 200 lay members demand an extraordinary diocesan congress to discuss what is at stake.

Cardinal Ricard's recent letter in Aquitaine reflects the deep anger and sense of betrayal of the people of Bordeaux. "In Bordeaux, the creation of this institute has provoked a strong reaction. We cannot forget the violence which has characterised over several years the relations between the occupants of St Eloi and the diocesan Church." 

Cardinal Ricard goes on to explain how he sees a way forward that would involve the setting up of a personal parish according to Code 518 of canon law. This would require the signing of a convention between the diocese and the institute. The most crucial moment for the settling of this dispute, and a key one for the relationship between the Church and those who do not accept Vatican II, will be the visit of Cardinal Ricard to Rome to try and find a solution. Cardinal Ricard knows how damaging this controversy is. As he writes in Aquitaine, "We know simply that neither the dissolving of the Gospel into the climate of the times, nor the founding of Christian ghettos looking back in on themselves, are satisfactory responses to the challenge of evangelisation."


http://www.thetablet.co.uk/articles/8828/

Meanwhile, the owner of Angelqueen.org organised an interview with Fr de Tanoüarn of the newly-erected Institute:

Quote:
 
Interview with Father de Tanoüarn the Good Shepherd Institute

By John Grasmeier and the French Connection
Angelqueen.org
November, 2006
Link to story and comments

The Good Shepherd Institute was created by the Holy See on the feast of The Nativity of Our Lady (Sept. 8th) as a traditional society of apostolic life. When it was founded less than two months ago, it began with five former French SSPX priests who had left or been expelled from the Society. It now claims at least nine seminarians from several countries with many others, including many priests, showing interest in taking up with the newly created institute. Although it is headquartered in France, the GSI is not in any way consigned to any geographic boundaries, and is already garnering interest many other areas around the globe.

According to their official charge, the GSI is authorized to administer any and all traditional sacraments. The churches under its control will be given official “parish” status, although this can only be done with the express permission of the local bishop. Also of note, not only are they permitted to critically analyze the documents of the Second Vatican Council, but they have a specific mandate - in fact a duty - to do so.

The creation of the institute took most by surprise, save for those few whom had managed to catch wind of it beforehand, but were sworn to secrecy.

When the “French Connection” and I were discussing the matter, he informed me that he was sure that he could arrange an exclusive with one of these priests. I told him I would put some questions together. For this interview however, being that he is the one on the scene in France and being that he is the one who has built a rapport with these priests, I insisted that in addition to my questions he should ask a few as well. French Connection agreed.

Hence we are blessed to have as our guest, Father Guillaume de Tanoüarn. In addition to being one of the “Bordeaux 5”, Father de Tanoüarn is the author of "Vatican II et l'Evangile" (Vatican II and the Gospel) and "L'Evidence Chrétienne" (Christian Obviousness). He is also founder of the Saint Paul center in Paris.

Please be mindful when reading the interview that it had to be translated into French and the answers had to be translated from French into English.

Enjoy.


Father, you’re one of the five former SSPX priest who founded the Good Shepherd Institute. How did this happen? And who initiated the contact with Rome?
Well, we began as a group of 5 priests who already knew each other. The five included Fr. Héry – he and I were in seminary at the same time, where we had lengthy and deep discussions. Then there is Fr. Philippe Laguerie, who as my first superior I was under his orders for 7 years. Then there is Fr. Aulagnier, with whom I wrote the book “La Tradition sans peur” (Tradition Without Fear), in which he fully confides. Incidentally the book was prefaced by Fr. Laguerie. Then there is Fr. Forestier, who although I’ve known for shorter period of time because he is younger, we appreciate each other pretty much.

So we were a group of 5 priests, bound by sacerdotal friendship. It’s hard to say where the idea came from. It just came and grew.

Now, if you mean the chronology of how the Good Shepherd Institute was erected, I must mention the actions of Fr. Barthe who negotiated with Cardinal Hoyos. The result was an act of adhesion, which give us the right to constructive criticism toward the Second Vatican Council (“constructive”, as opposed to “polemical”) showing full respect for those involved. This in fact was always the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, who wanted to read the Council of Vatican II in the light of Catholic Tradition.

Paradoxically, Cardinal Ricard, the Archbishop of Bordeaux, also played a role by urging Fr. Laguerie to regularize his situation after he was ousted from the SSPX.

And we shall not forget the very nature of things: It was not possible to remain suspended for great a period of time. A Catholic heart can’t stand it too long. We found in Rome warm understanding, pastoral charity, and also great diplomatic skills by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos.

I think that traditionalists can’t remain separated from Rome unless they want it so - either because they fear the episcopates or because they are eager to remain aloof, spiritually speaking.


You are answerable to the Ecclesia Dei commission – which has been in existence since 1988 – Why did you wait until 2006 to join up?

In 1988 and in the years that followed, the spirit in Rome was totally different than what it is today. In 1988, with the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, Pope John Paul II (bene volens male volens) set an attitude of tolerance toward traditionalists. They were allowed into the institutional Church, but only through the back door.

The FSSP was created at that time as a sort of “decontamination chamber” to help traditionalists transition toward the Church of Vatican II. Soon enough, it was clear the maneuver would not work - with most FSSP priests refusing this ecclesial prospect and not willing to play such a role. Many tensions resulted, such as the nomination of a non-elected superior in 2000.

Step by step, by the end of the reign of John Paul II, the mindset changed. The liturgical question became important, which had been considered insignificant until then. There was an encyclical (Ecclesia de Eucharistia) in 2003 and a pastoral letter (Redemptionis Sacramentum) in 2004. At first, the idea was to improve the way the Pauline Mass is celebrated – but it evolved and the idea of a liberalization or Tridentine Mass emerged.

Today, the election of Benedict XVI confirms this. The pope wishes a liberalization of the traditional rite – and even though the new motu proprio hasn’t been published yet, the Good Shepherd Institute benefits from that freedom. We’re no longer second class Catholics whose fantasies are merely tolerated – we’re the custodians of a liturgical treasure which benefits the entire Church by manifesting the glory of Her divine Spouse.


So there’s a new state of mind in Rome, and you become part of the Ecclesia Dei circle of influence. What’s your specific charisma there?

We’re not the fifth wheel of the Ecclesia Dei car, or the thirteenth wheel if you wish, as thirteen groups are answerable to that commission, the Good Shepherd Institute being the youngest one. We’re not serving a “circle of influence”; we’re fully in the Roman Catholic Church, which we wish to serve at a difficult time in Her history. We have a double specificity: From a pastoral point of view, and according to the name we choose for our Institute, we want to open personal parishes -traditional personal parishes - in France and elsewhere. Personal parishes are not much of a problem in the USA, but in Europe they are a new concept – a concept that raises deliberate hostility from French bishops.

Also, we want to contribute – as much as we are able – to theological work and aide in renewing Catholic intelligence. The time has come to definitively quit religious ideologies which were imposed in the sixties. Our age is one of uncertainty and fear, and we want to respond to this by proposing the traditional Roman Catholic forms of liturgy and theology.


You mention ‘religious ideologies’ – would you define this?

For example the ideas which fall under what the philosopher Jacques Maritain called “the “temporalization” of God’s kingdom” – in other words, an unhealthy mixture consisting of politics and religion, but also (and more subtly) those theologies which mistake therapy for spirituality or self development for eternal salvation. Faced with these tendencies, we feel it’s essential to show in the liturgy “God felt by the heart” as Pascal (the 17th century philosopher) said. We want to show, without any fear, the power of seduction the Catholic Faith has when it is in all of its splendor, and we want to appeal to everyone’s responsibility toward the truth of its destiny.

Today cultural challenges won’t be met unless Catholics stop considering Vatican II as the new tables of the law, and enthusiastically rediscover the richness of the great Roman Catholic Tradition.


How will you expand? You need altars, you need priests. What about bishops?

For the time being, the GSI has the Saint-Eloi church in the center of Bordeaux, where our headquarters are located. It’s a 13th century church, a magnificent building that had been abandoned, but was restored by a group led by Father Laguérie.

We have a seminary in Courtalain, 150 kilometers (93 miles) away from Paris, which was just opened. The seminary hosts 7 first year seminarians; one is a Pole, one is a Mexican, and one is Brazilian, the others are French.

In Paris, where I am, we opened a cultural center with courses and conferences that reach outside of the traditionalist circles. 300 people attend Mass here on an average Sunday.

Also, we opened a house in Rome (a “procuracy” is the technical name) with 4 students. Two are seminarians and two are priests. We’ve got contacts in Latin America – where some 10 priests around Fr Rafael Navas are on the verge of joining the GSI. We’ve also got some other contacts, here and there.

Last but not least, we’ll have three ordinations very soon.

Regarding France, I’m optimistic despite the bishops here. They are often hostile and seem to be laid back in the eighties, as if they didn’t take into account the evolutions of the Universal Church. But I’m optimistic, for a simple reason: demography. There are more churches than priests in France, and the ratio isn’t getting any better. Also, I feel the bishops will finally follow the pope’s will - even those who don’t hide their John Paul II nostalgia.


Some think (or fear) that the Good Shepherd Institute was erected in order to destabilize the SSPX.

We don’t intend to compete with the SSPX. The SSPX has created a stronghold to stay within until the crisis is over. That was their angle. Ours is different. We put ourselves at the pope’s disposal, without any delay, which is a less comfortable position, but a more exciting one. We don’t seek confrontation with the SSPX, but we wish to debate truly, in order to elaborate theological answers following Vatican II.

That’s the reason we’re organizing a large meeting in Paris on November 20, under the motto ‘Catholic Tradition – our Common Good’. The SSPX was at the top of our invitation list, we wanted them to take part in the debates. SSPX superiors decided they couldn’t accept, but I’m confident things will change with the passing of time – whatever personal wounds this attitude may conceal.

This is no time for division. All those who sincerely want to see traditional liturgy and traditional theology returned to the faithful must unite - as Catholic Tradition really is our common good.


Thank you Father for answering our questions. Is there anything you would like to add?

Yes – I understand some members of your forum doubt the Good Shepherd Institute will succeed, or that it will even remain traditional. As you know: “By their fruits you shall know them”. I tell your readers: ‘Wait and see’. Would you agree on another interview, say by next year? By this time we’ll be able to draw a first appraisal of the Good Shepherd Institute.From Angelqueen site, with which I am not familiar.


There's a storm brewing here.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
We cannot ignore the issue. There are Catholics who yearn for the return of the Tridentine Mass but accept that Rome makes decisions that affect the Church world wide, and those people faithfully attend The New Rite of Holy Mass in their home parishes. Some attend Masses arranged by the Latin Mass Society. A very small number refuse to attend any Mass in the New Rite and are prepared to travel considerable distances to attend the Mass of their choice.

It is not healthy for the Church to be split into factions.

We await an announcement from Rome, encouraging bishops to give clergy more freedom to celebrate Tridentine Mass. Perhaps one, in every major city, every Sunday, would be a good means of testing the water, and ascertaining the requirement.

All I want to see is stability and something approaching uniformity. Rome makes the rules. In practice, they are often made up locally, sometimes due to parishioners advising their new parish priests "we don't do it that way, Father. This is the way WE do it here." Well, so far as I am concerned, I am a member of the congregation, I am not the priest, it is not my job to say how "WE" do it. "WE", the congregation, do not "do it".
Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
PJD


I found Fr de Tanoüarn’s interview interesting. Seemed reasonable, despite the warning about ‘translations’.

Crux for me was his remark:

“I think that traditionalists can’t remain separated from Rome unless they want it so - either because they fear the episcopates or because they are eager to remain aloof, spiritually speaking.”

A bit like lay obedience to priests, isn’t it? – difficult.

PJD
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Nov 4 2006, 08:21 PM
We await an announcement from Rome, encouraging bishops to give clergy more freedom to celebrate Tridentine Mass. Perhaps one, in every major city, every Sunday, would be a good means of testing the water, and ascertaining the requirement.

Rose,

The Motu Proprio due to be signed and issued soon removes the authority from the bishops to give permission for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass and will give it to the priests.

I think this is half the reason the French episcopacy has gone nuts. The other half of the reason is that they see the Motu Proprio and the Good Shepherd Institute as a real threat.

When you consider the fact that, in the diocese covering Bordeaux at least, they have trouble filling the pews in parish churches every Sunday but the GSI Church of St Eloi has a congregation of 300 every Sunday.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Patrick
Nov 4 2006, 11:22 PM
When you consider the fact that, in the diocese covering Bordeaux at least, they have trouble filling the pews in parish churches every Sunday but the GSI Church of St Eloi has a congregation of 300 every Sunday.

Are the congregation local people or have they travelled long distances to get there?

I know the Church in France is in crisis regarding the massive drop in Mass attendance, but we cannot compare attendance at one church that appeals to a "special interest group", with another that serves a specific locality. I would say that is like comparing the congregation of my church, which is the only Catholic Church in the district, with just one of about six Anglican ones in the same "patch".
Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Nov 4 2006, 11:35 PM
Patrick
Nov 4 2006, 11:22 PM
When you consider the fact that, in the diocese covering Bordeaux at least, they have trouble filling the pews in parish churches every Sunday but the GSI Church of St Eloi has a congregation of 300 every Sunday.

Are the congregation local people or have they travelled long distances to get there?

That I don't know, Rose. I think it would be a mix of both. Reason being, if it was mainly people travelling miles to attend, would the Cardinal be that phased? No. I think the majority of the congregation are local people. That is what, in my opinion, has put the wind up the Cardinal.

You have to realise that France is the stronghold of the SSPX. St Eloi was an SSPX church until Fr Laguérie (the church is his, not the SSPX's) and the others founded the GSI. It would be silly to think that the GSI has suddenly got it's own congregation at St Eloi. They've been there for years. Now the priest has been regularised and the GSI erected in full and perfect communion with Rome, the Cardinal Archbishop of Bordeaux has had his nose put out of joint.

Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
I wonder if this is an experiment, carried out by Pope Benedict, to find out once and for all, what is best for us, and just how popular Tridentine Mass will be, provided it is offered by a properly authorised priest.

Perhaps the way forward is for churches in cities to forget about borders, so different churches could have Mass with different "cultural styles"? People who love Gregorian chant are unlikely to enjoy clapping, and folk music. Some who want exhuberant worship would not want to attend Latin Mass with traditional music and all that goes with it.
Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Nov 5 2006, 12:56 AM
I wonder if this is an experiment, carried out by Pope Benedict, to find out once and for all, what is best for us, and just how popular Tridentine Mass will be, provided it is offered by a properly authorised priest.

Time will tell, my friend. We cannot be certain of the Pope's plans or ideas, at this stage.

Quote:
 
Perhaps the way forward is for churches in cities to forget about borders, so different churches could have Mass with different "cultural styles"?


What do you mean by 'cultural styles' Rose? Do you mean things like African Masses (tribal stuff) etc?

Quote:
 
People who love Gregorian chant are unlikely to enjoy clapping, and folk music.  Some who want exhuberant worship would not want to attend Latin Mass with traditional music and all that goes with it.


People who love Gregorian Chant believe that there is a time and place for clapping and folk music - neither of these being the principal Mass on Sundays.

I clap when I enjoy something. I listen to folk music. Neither of these would I want to see or hear inside a Catholic Church - to my mind it's just irreverent and disrespectful.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Patrick
Nov 5 2006, 01:23 AM
What do you mean by 'cultural styles' Rose? Do you mean things like African Masses (tribal stuff) etc?

No. I meant clapping and making a noise.

Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Nov 5 2006, 01:31 AM
Patrick
Nov 5 2006, 01:23 AM
What do you mean by 'cultural styles' Rose?  Do you mean things like African Masses (tribal stuff) etc?

No. I meant clapping and making a noise.

I suppose 'cultural' is a nice way of putting it... :wh:
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Patrick
Nov 5 2006, 01:41 AM
:wh:

I meant

:clap:

not

:wh:
Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
nelly k

I read the first couple of post`s with the attachments, at the end of the day both the Tablet and the SSPX can take all the umridge they like, and individuals can behave somewhat immaturly, but this decision has come from Rome, its a case of wait and see, uncomfortable that may be for some, I was taken by the bit from the Priest re Ideologies , but I will need to read it agian
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rorate Caeli
 
The Autumn Assembly of the French Episcopal Conference (CEF) begins today in Lourdes (the assembly even has its own blog), and the main item of discussion will be "the Traditionalist Question" and a blueprint prepared by an internal commission in response to their decision in the Spring Assembly.

It is possible to assess the mood of many of the bishops by reading this letter by Marcel Herriot, bishop of Soissons, to the current edition of the weekly Témoignage Chrétien (Source):

I join all those who deplore the creation of the Institute of the Good Shepherd without an understanding with the diocese of Bordeaux and its bishop. I seriously fear the motu proprio announced by the pope himself [?] on the general availability of the celebration of the mass from before the Council.

I wrote in "La Vie diocésaine" [the diocesan paper] on November 1:

"Whatever shall be the decisions pope Benedict XVI shall make in liturgical matters, we cannot compromise with traditionalists on the orientations provided by the Second Vatican Council. They are vital for the Church and her involvement in the present world."

I add:

"We will not be able to accept the division of our communities according to individual liturgical sensitivities and tastes".

Traditionalist priests, the leaders of this movement, are using the Latin mass as a standard-bearer for a conception of the world and of mankind which is the opposite of the spirit of the conciliar constitution "On the Church in the Modern World" [Gaudium et Spes]. The violence and arrogance of the leaders of this movement are not compatible with the values of the
Gospel of the Beatitudes.

Marcel Herriot
Bishop of Soissons, Laon, and Saint-Quentin
.


LINK

As the quote says, this gives an indication of the mood of the French episcopacy with regards to the GSI.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Patrick
Nov 5 2006, 05:15 PM
Marcel Herriot
bishop of Soissons
The violence and arrogance of the leaders of this movement.



Violence? That's a bit strong.
Posted ImagePosted Image

Catholic and proud of it!
Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards
Online Profile Goto Top
 
Patrick
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Nov 5 2006, 06:23 PM
Patrick
Nov 5 2006, 05:15 PM
Marcel Herriot
bishop of Soissons
The violence and arrogance of the leaders of this movement.



Violence? That's a bit strong.

It's also libellous.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Locked Topic