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| Redemptionis Sacramentum; text and discussion | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 20. October 2006, 01:07 (1,996 Views) | |
| pete | Sunday, 22. April 2007, 23:15 Post #61 |
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Hi Newminister, we meet again discussing the same old subject. It’s obvious that neither of us have budged an inch since we last communicated. You say that we EMHC’s are unnecessary, how I wish I could agree with you. I wish with all my heart that we had sufficient number of priests, to make EMHC’s obsolete and a thing of the past. Sadly you are stuck with us for some time longer, so I suggest that you get used to this thorn in your side. As I have said to you before, we need your prayers much more than we need your disapproval. I know the poor dear housebound folk whom I take Holy Communion to, would much prefer receiving from a priest than from a layperson. After saying that, they would much prefer receiving Holy Communion from me than not receiving it at all. So remember when you belittle the office of Gods messengers, duly authorised by the Holy Roman Catholic Church, you are putting yourself under the heading of a pick and choose Catholic. As part of the Body of Christ (the Church) we are not in the position to pick and choose the bits we like and reject what we consider disagreeable. A more Christian approach might be to pray for more good Holy Priests, also pray for EMHC’s who under the dire circumstances are helping to maintain a Church in difficulty. God bless Pete |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 22. April 2007, 23:34 Post #62 |
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Pete, to be fair to Newminster, he is not totally against EMHC's in all circumstances. I would like your opinion, as an EHMC, weekday Masses, attended by anything between four and six people. Would there be any justification for an EHMC to be used for distribution of Holy Communion by an EMHC? That is what used to happen in a parish where I attended Mass. The priest was able bodied. |
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| Joseph | Monday, 23. April 2007, 00:00 Post #63 |
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Derek, didn't you spend a considerable time overseas? I just wonder how the situation you describe compares with the scenario in the countries you were familiar with - or is that not relevant? We in UK seem to expect to receive Holy Communion on an amazingly regular basis, and yet in many other countries Catholics may only get that opportunity 3 or 4 times a year, if they are lucky. What right have we to expect differently when our priesthood is dwindling at such a rate, with little concern (apparently) from our heirarchy? EMHCs are, by definition, required only when priests need help to cope with their commitments - but what are their commitments? How many practicing Catholics is a priest expected to be able to serve, unassisted? Obviously it will vary depending upon local circumstances and geographical layout of their parish, but are there any guidelines that recognise this - or is it simply a question of them being asked to do their best to cope until they are physically unable to carry on any longer? It seems to me that even though in many parishes our expectations of frequent communion being made available in all circumstances seem to be increasing whilst our priesthood is diminishing. Some would say there is no need for Holy Communion on such a frequent basis, nor for it to be made available under both kinds, but I couldn't possibly comment on that :o |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 23. April 2007, 00:14 Post #64 |
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Joseph I suspect it is easier for we who are fit and mobile to say "Weekly Holy Communion is not essential" than it is for a person who rarely or never manages to even get to the church, due to health problems. Some of those people are nearing the end of their days. Others get little out of life, in an earthly sense. Surely we who can attend Mass would not begrudge them regular reception of Holy Communion? It could be our turn next. The only time I had an illness that prevented me going for a few weeks, I was grateful to the Extraordinary Minister who came every Sunday, and acted with due reverence whilst giving me Holy Communion. The parish had attendance of over 1000. It was in a city, also serving villages and small towns in an area about 15 miles radius. It had two priests, and now only has one. Would Christ say to the sick "Bare essentials are sufficient for you"? |
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| pete | Monday, 23. April 2007, 09:36 Post #65 |
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Quote:- I would like your opinion, as an EHMC, weekday Masses, attended by anything between four and six people. Would there be any justification for an EHMC to be used for distribution of Holy Communion by an EMHC? That is what used to happen in a parish where I attended Mass. The priest was able bodied. Rose I agree with you, in these circumstances the EMHC would be totally unnecessary unless Holy Communion is under both kinds. I myself would like to see the Chalice used only on large feast days such as Easter and Christmas; this would add extra prominence to these wonderful celebrations. Give Easter eggs and Christmas cake to children on a daily basis, when Easter and Christmas arrive, the idea of an Easter eggs or Christmas cake as a special treat looses its appeal. The same might be said about the Precious Blood, when we receive Holy Communion we are indeed receiving both the Body and the Precious Blood of Christ within the Sacred Host. By removing the Chalice, we EMHC’s would only be required to feed the souls of the sick and housebound and assisting the Celebrant on great feast days. However, there are those who object to EMHC’s even taking Our Lord in Holy Communion to the sick and housebound. I find this attitude very selfish from healthy, active individuals. In John 6 Our Lord said “ I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE, UNLESS YOU EAT MY BODY AND DRINK MY BLOOD, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU” If I am Gods instrument in taking the Bread of Life to souls, so be it. And as long as I am able to do Gods Will, I will carry on doing so until such times we can be relieved of our position by Priests or Deacons. God bless Pete |
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| newminster | Monday, 23. April 2007, 11:30 Post #66 |
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So we're not that far apart after all, pete, are we? I was quite specific in my posting (as I have been in the past) in saying that Communion under both kinds was never intended to be the norm and the use of lay people to assist in the distribution of Communion was never intended to be the norm either. I know that there are priests who are struggling on long past the time when they should have expected to be allowed to retire. They are wonderful men and we must give them the support and help they need. I stress: I am not talking about them. My parochial experience (in my own parish and in others where I go on holiday) is almost exclusively of priests who are fit. RS is quite specific:
And again:
That all seems pretty clear to me. Though RS is relatively vague on the question of Communion under both kinds (at least as far as the occasions when it should be permitted goes) it has been generally understood that V2 did not envisage it being a daily occurrence. So on weekdays in our parish, the priest distributes the host while two EMHCs stand by with chalices for a congregation of about 15-20 of whom half do not receive under both kinds anyway. Each Sunday our morning Mass lasts for about 50-55 minutes. It would probably take 10 minutes instead of five to distribute Communion if we did away with the second ciborium. Is this 'unduly prolonging' the Mass? Do we need four chalices? Do we need any, on a normal Sunday? As far as taking Communion to the housebound is concerned, it would have taken about two hours of Father's time yesterday to visit the three people concerned. I cannot comment on how he actually spent that time but certainly my understanding was that he had no pressing engagements. If he had he would have been quite correct in delegating the duty to one or more EMHCs for that Sunday only. Note the quote I have emphasised above. I'm sorry, pete, but in a lot of places it is the wish to have the laity 'participate' right, left and centre whether appropriate or not that is what I have a problem with. I repeat, once you allow the exception to become the norm you devalue the norm. And once you choose to ignore instructions from the Vatican you are heading for chaos. En passant, my experience in France is that you will be lucky to see a weekday Mass at all in many places outside the major towns. You will certainly not get a regular Service of the Word and Holy Communion as a substitute and the question of daily Communion doesn't arise -- just as it never used to in this country either. |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 23. April 2007, 11:37 Post #67 |
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Probably doing some non confidential filing, word processing, or maintenance of the parish website. That is what priests do. |
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| newminster | Monday, 23. April 2007, 12:10 Post #68 |
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Kilmarnock v Celtic? Surely not!
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| Deleted User | Monday, 23. April 2007, 13:03 Post #69 |
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At a Sunday evening Mass, not too long ago, we had a congregation of, at the very most, 30 to 40 people. (Unusual this, but the weather was dreadful - blowing a blizzard.) There was a concelebrating Priest (appealing for the missions)and both Priests came forward to offer Communion. As they came forward, an EMHC made her way forward also. (Yes, it was a woman I'm sorry to say) That wasn't only unnecessary - it was embarrassingly so - there just weren't enough people to go around! I believe this is the type of behaviour Newminster is complaining about - not the use of EMsHC per se |
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| Joseph | Monday, 23. April 2007, 13:05 Post #70 |
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Rose, I think you may be missing the point (that I feebly tried to to convey). What do you regard as 'the bare essentials? The question I raised, in consideration of the Topic being the requirements of "Redemptionis Sacramentum", was:-
I believe that many of us are guilty of (mentally) extending those commitments to a level far in excess of what was traditionally sought from our priests - including Communion under both kinds, Communion to those who have difficulty getting to church, weekday Communion in the absense of a priest, etc, ALL on a regular basis. These are not at the direction of the Vatican, but we are getting into the habit (as newminster says) of seeing them be provided by lay ministers as a norm - which is in fact changing the whole character of our Church, the perception and value of our priests, and the way we worship. |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 23. April 2007, 13:47 Post #71 |
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Agreed. At most Sunday Masses there is no need for EMHCs. In parishes spread over a wide area it can be impossible for the priest to get round all of his parishioners who are unable to get to Mass. It would take our priest MONTHS if he covered one area each week, so EMHCs take Holy Communion to peoples' homes. As for laity running weekday Eucharistic Services, there is no need for that. When our priest is not available, we cannot have weekday Mass, and we have no Eucharistic services. Nobody in our parish complains about that. We are thankful for a weekly Mass. |
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| newminster | Monday, 23. April 2007, 14:57 Post #72 |
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Hi again, KatyA -- You've just about nailed it, I think. It's the EMHC rota that says A,B,C,D for the chalice; F for the second ciborium; G,H,I for the Sick on a never-ending cycle, regardless of circumstances, that I am uncomfortable with. On those occasions when there is a concelebrant priest someone invariably has to be shooed away because they will all troop up regardless and while I am totally in agreement with Rose and pete about the need to be taking the Eucharist to the housebound I firmly believe that there are priests (correction, in some cases I know there are) who are quite happy to 'offload' this task onto EMHCs some of whom (and I don't want to fall out with any past, present or future Ministers) are doing it more for their own glorification than that of the Almighty. Wasn't there a wonderful piece (I've forgotten where) about the state of affairs in some parishes where there is a desperate need to recruit more EMHCs because it was noticed that there were still some ordinary people left in the pews? |
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| pete | Monday, 23. April 2007, 16:50 Post #73 |
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On Saturday 5th May, I am to attend a meeting for all EMHC’s in the Plymouth Diocese, many of the points which have been posted on this forum I will make a careful note and try to highlight them at this gathering. I must confess I am bitterly disappointed, out of all the EMHC’s in my parish, only two of us have applied our names to attend this Saturday full day course, possibly others may add their names later. I would have assumed for something as important as this, we should have had a much greater list of volunteers. I would like to take this opportunity of thanking Deacon Robert for posting Redemptionis Sacramentum, even though I’ve read it many times in the past, it’s a document which we EMHC’s should have at hand at all times and read on a regular basis. A few months ago the Bishop put an end to our Saturday night Masses due to the shortage of priests. It was anticipated that the Sunday morning Mass would be bursting at the seams and our PP decided as a trial to have four EMHC’s on the Chalice and one on the Ciborium. That would have meant having five EMHC’s distributing Holy Communion, that was far too many in my mind and I refused to participate in this experiment. It proved to be unnecessary in the end and after two or three Masses we reverted back to the two Chalices. I’m so pleased at last that Newminster and I agree on several points after all I have said about him in the past, but I must reiterate, whilst priests distribute Holy Communion under both kinds, an EMHC is vital if no other priest of deacon are available. God bless Pete |
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| newminster | Monday, 23. April 2007, 17:06 Post #74 |
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More agreement, pete. This is getting to be a habit. |
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| Clare | Monday, 23. April 2007, 17:13 Post #75 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Was this it, newminster? Clare. |
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S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
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3:50 PM Jul 11