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Redemptionis Sacramentum; text and discussion
Topic Started: Friday, 20. October 2006, 01:07 (1,995 Views)
Deacon Robert
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I noticed that this document was missing and was wondering how it has impacted on the church in the UK.

the link is nice. It allows you to jump to each chapter instead of scrolling through. Adoremus is conservative and fully in communion with Rome.

http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html

The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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The link is excellent. We had a link to the document on the old forum. Sorry we slipped up not including it in the new Forum Library.

Some parishes follow the procedures set down in Redemptoris Sacramentum, but sadly some do not.
Keep the Faith!

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Deacon Robert
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I would say most here have not or they change only the things they want. There is actually an "association of men religious" that wrote to the Bishops refusing to impliment R.S. and stating they would pull out of the churches they serve. There has been a lot of discussion on a Deacon's BB. about rubrics. I don't understand what the problem is except pride on the part of the Priest or Deacon. It is not their Mass. It is Christ's Mass. The instructions are simple it is not rocket science
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Joseph

Deacon Robert
Oct 23 2006, 03:40 PM
I would say most here have not or they change only the things they want. There is actually an "association of men religious" that wrote to the Bishops refusing to impliment R.S. and stating they would pull out of the churches they serve. There has been a lot of discussion on a Deacon's BB. about rubrics. I don't understand what the problem is except pride on the part of the Priest or Deacon. It is not their Mass. It is Christ's Mass. The instructions are simple it is not rocket science

Hmm!

Isn't that rank disobedience?

If the Bishops have any loyalty to the Pope at all they should impose the directives in their entirety, and just let the detractors do as they say. The Church is better-off without them.
Joseph
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PJD

In relatiion to the Eucharist, wouldn't a reasonably devout person, aware of the significance of the mystery, automatically observe proper attention to purification of the vessels etc. anyway.

PJD
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Deacon Robert
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PJD,

The laity have been able to purify the sacred vessels when properly instructed, but this was done under an indult. R.S. was not written as an instruction to the lay people, it was to remind and instruct our Bishops, Pastors, Priests and Deacons what was the general norms of the Latin rite Catholic church. Throughout R.S. there are reference numbers that lead us back to previous documents that estabished the particular rule, action,or church requirement.

The present "dust up" over EMHCs not being able to Purify is not due to R.S. which only states "what should be done", but due to someone in the US requesting an extension of the indult. The indult lapsed a number of years ago and nothing was said. There is a saying "let sleeping dogs lie" With the Vatican it works along the lines of don't ask the question unless you already know the answer. I would bet that if any other countries' Bishops ask for an extension the answer will be the same.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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CARLO
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Deacon Robert
Oct 29 2006, 02:43 PM
PJD,
........................The present "dust up" over EMHCs not being able to Purify is not due to R.S. which only states "what should be done", but due to someone in the US requesting an extension of the indult. The indult lapsed a number of years ago and nothing was said. There is a saying "let sleeping dogs lie" With the Vatican it works along the lines of don't ask the question unless you already know the answer. I would bet that if any other countries' Bishops ask for an extension the answer will be the same.

Well what a carry on!

So much for the 'authority' of the Church!

The quicker the Church sorts this mess out the better. We need to see an end to the spectacle of EMs in raincoats and woolly hats 'purifying' the Sacred Vessels as poor Father sits at the side of the altar studying his Mass booklet!

Libera nos
Deliver us


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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PJD

Deacon Robert:

Sorry I didn't realise this was to do with a technical (?canon) matter. I should have read the posts more carefully.

PJD
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Deacon Robert
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PJD,
Not to worry I answer, if I can, where the question is asked. If I am put in the sin bin, so be it. In this case the directive (R.S.) was toward the clergy, not really the laity. We ( and I do mean this generally) have not passed the proper information on to the people of God as clearly as we should have, both recently and since VII.

Carlo,
Each of us has a particular role in liturgy. All should be properly trained for their role and partake fully in that role. The problem is that after VII ( PERSONAL OPINION) The Priests and the Laity (I was there at the time) were not given the the proper catachesis. Our Priests, for the most part, were not given guidance by our chief shepherds, how to implement the changes. Each Pastor was able to interpret the documents as they saw fit. Now we stand 40 years beyond VII trying to understand and correct the intentions of VII.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert You have clarified a situation that puzzled me. A priest who took over a parish a year ago is "walking a tightrope" because one layperson who has has served her parish diligently has too strong a hold. She takes it upon herself to guide the priest, telling how things have always been done in the parish. He is tackling problems tactfully, one at a time. The day will come when everything in his parish is done by the book. What a shambles! There was a time when no lay person would presume to tell the priest "we do things differently here."
Keep the Faith!

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CARLO
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Deacon Robert
Oct 29 2006, 07:19 PM
PJD,
Not to worry I answer, if I can, where the question is asked. If I am put in the sin bin, so be it. In this case the directive (R.S.) was toward the clergy, not really the laity. We ( and I do mean this generally) have not passed the proper information on to the people of God as clearly as we should have, both recently and since VII.

Carlo,
Each of us has a particular role in liturgy. All should be properly trained for their role and partake fully in that role. The problem is that after VII ( PERSONAL OPINION) The Priests and the Laity (I was there at the time) were not given the the proper catachesis. Our Priests, for the most part, were not given guidance by our chief shepherds, how to implement the changes. Each Pastor was able to interpret the documents as they saw fit. Now we stand 40 years beyond VII trying to understand and correct the intentions of VII.

Deacon Robert

:D I was there too!

(From 'Tales of an Altar Server')

1968

The Wooden Altar


A new priest. Father Harry from Holland. "Now zen boys vee are going to haff zee Engleesh marse!" "Zee sakeond Fatican Cownsil says that vee must use zee fernakulaar and olso zat zee preest mahst face zee peeple, soh vee are going to haff a vooden altar for a vile"

"Yes Father Harry but where is the wooden altar going to go?"

"Eet veel go in front of zee present altar for a few manths and zen ven vee have raised enuff maney vee vill have bilders to cut off zee front of zee big altar and move it farwards. Zen vee can get rid of zee vooden altar"

What a dreadful, rickety, shabby affair the wooden altar was. Constructed out of planks and what I think were railway sleepers it was quickly covered over with several altar cloths to disguise its primitive nature. And Father Harry "faced zee peeple" and said mass in "zee fernakular" and readers entered the sanctuary to read from "zee lektern" which we servers had to carry from the Epistle side to the Gospel side at the appropriate points during the mass. If you were my height (about 5 foot at the time) this involved an action and a handgrip on the lectern similar to that of a weightlifter!

But Father Harry still wore the full vestments including the black cope when necessary and the Sunday High Mass was still sung in Latin and we still had the Asperges Me and a proper confessional, incense, bells and a communion rail. And to be honest that first English translation wasn't too bad. But there wasn't much room left in the sanctuary for we servers to execute our moves what with the "old altar" and "zee vooden altar" and "zee lektern".

Still "verse vas to come"

"Carlo next veek zay come to take away zee vooden altar and zey are also going to take zee communion rail at zee zame time"

"Why Father Harry?"

"Vee are going to have communion standing up"

"Why Father Harry"

"Veecause zee zecond Vatican Council has recommended it. Now zstop asking mee all zeese questions"

Copyright 'CARLO' 2004.
Judica me Deus
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Karin
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Karin
Carlo...again, wonderful. Thank you.
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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CARLO
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Karin
Oct 30 2006, 07:02 PM
Carlo...again, wonderful.  Thank you.

Thanks Karin!

Have some more:

From: Tales of an Altar Server

1969

V2 and counting!


Father Harry from Holland took the parish by storm. He was a V2 storm trooper - we didn't know what had hit us! At the same time he had a great personality, was really easy going which was a novelty for a priest at the time and everybody loved him. You could hardly say he was "happy clappy" but he was a great "reformer". One couldn't help but be impressed. To top it all he was fond of a cigar and a glass or two of Scotch and of the then unheard of habit of wearing sunglasses indoors. Men took to him and women swooned! We altar boys were his sidekicks!

Sunday Morning
"Now zen bohys tooday vee are having zee penitential service at 3 pm so I want you to come back to zee church after you haff had your Sunday rost beef"

"What's a penitential service Father Harry?"

"Bah, it ees instead of zee confession vich takes so mach time. Zee peeple come to zee penitential service and vee all say to Our Blessed Lord zat vee are sorry for our sins. Zen zere is abzolution - eet ees the same as going to zee old confession"

"But Father people won't want to talk about their sins in front of everyone else"

"Zey don't haff too. Zey just say an act of contrition and vee sing a few zongs. I give zee absolution and zen zat ees it!"

"Sounds easier than confession. Who thought this up?"

"Again my deer Carlo eet ees zee zecond fatican counsil. Haff you not heard of zee zecond fatican counsil? In zer Nederlands zey are already implementing all zee progressive changes of zee council. Peeple are so slow here!"

"OK Father"

"O and Carlo, haff you got a geetar?"

"Yes Father"

"Vell breeng it with you. Vee are haffing some young peeple from Leeverpool who are going to play zum volk songs at zee penitential service. You can help them"

"But I only know a few chords Father. I can only play things like "Michael Row the Boat Ashore"

"Excellent. I theenk that ees one of the songs zey are playing!"

[Copyright 'CARLO' 2004]
Judica me Deus
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Angus Toanimo
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CARLO.

Your work deserves a forum of it's own!

What more can I say?

:nw:
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Deacon Robert
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How long will people put up with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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