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EMPTYING PEWS
Topic Started: Monday, 2. October 2006, 11:21 (1,614 Views)
Rose of York
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EROS
Oct 16 2006, 09:19 AM
When I started this thread I never expectid it to get so explosive. I agree with Rose about the tightness of pews this stops people sitting down with ease. Disabled people cannot sit down so they leave, as you know I suffer with R.A. so I for one carn't sit on a pew, luckly we have a new priest and when he was told he went out and got some chairs, the right chairs too, not just any sort, as he asked me about them. I was so impressed I brought a couple more. Due to the chairs being installed a few more people have come back, to mass as now they can sit down. Maybe priest should be looking at seating then maybe they will fill seats not empty them.

LOVE TO ALL EROS        :wacko:  :wacko:

EROS

Hardly anybody appreciates the significance of your point. That is why you had such a fight getting a parish to spend a few miserable pounds to help you get into their church. It is also why, on most internet forums (not necessarily this one) the subject is treated as though it is of no consequence. You say that thanks to you helping get a few chairs into your church, a few more people besides yourself returned to Mass. Was the increase significant? Did the attendance increase by one in a hundred, or more?
Keep the Faith!

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EROS
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Rose I think that the attendance in our little church has gone up. We have about 40 average per week but since the chairs of which there are only four all have been taken. So an increase of four, but and a big BUT a few more chairs and the people will come to mass, we are a holiday area so I am shore more could be done. this area is full of people with pain and stay at home because they carn't sit on pews. I have had it out with the priest and he gave the old excuse , we are looking into it. I have also asked people and the answer I got was we pray for the sick, housebound and the disabled every week, so I said that it's alright praying but what are you yourselves doing to bring back people to mass. Glum faces was the order of the day.
I was once asked when I got out of my car at church what are you doing here arn't you one of our disabled and housebound this was from the priest. Anyway I will say it again CHAIRS, CHAIRS, AND MORE CHAIRS this is the 21st century get with it chairs are in pews are out. :sotc:
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Rose of York
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EROS
Oct 17 2006, 08:42 PM
I was once asked when I got out of my car at church what are you doing here arn't you one of our disabled and housebound this was from the priest.

He could have cut it short and said "You don't know you place. Heck, who can we pray for now? Quick somebody, rewrite the bidding prayers."

:rofl:

It appears your parish had a 10% increase for small expenditure. They must have got their money back by now, from your offertory contributions.

Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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The following post consists of a few postings copied from Charismata thread. PJD suggested some of the content would be better for another thread. The moderators agree. If I completely remove them from Charismata thread, some of the "chain of thought" on Charismata thread will be lost.

I therefore suggest we stick to discussing Spirituality and Charisms on the Charismata thread, and the reduction in church membership, on this one. Both subjects are equally important to the Church and her members.

Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Jan 16 2007, 03:16 PM
Some may have noticed that I have not posted previously either here or in the thread on spirituality. The main reason is.. I already know where the conversation is going to end. It always ends with people, even if they don't realize it, trying to convert the others to their way of thinking. The result is hurt feelings and anger.

If the converstion would stick to types of spirituality or practices of different ways, something positive can be learned. The same is true in the discussion on Charismata. Stay with what it is and what it is not.

I will post a section on "unofficial sacraments" from a text on sacramental theology that is used in many of our seminaries.

Hopefully it will move the thread back on track.

Deacon Robert
Jan 16 2007, 03:17 PM
Quote:
 
In the space of about ten years, from 1965 to 1975, many of modern Catholicism's unofficial sacraments all but disappeared, at least in North America and much of Western Europe. The rosary, benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, devotion to Mary and the saints, and other sacramental practices of the modern church still flourish in eastern Europe and in the developing countries of Latin America, Africa and Asia; but in the lands most affected by new ideas, technologies, and lifestyles the change has been drastic.

And it has been a genuine change. It is not as though the older sacramental practices died leaving nothing in their place, for they have indeed been replaced, sometimes in unexpected ways. But again, because of the Catholic custom of calling only the seven by the name "sacrament;” these new sacraments have not been called that. But they are in fact new (or in some cases revived) ways of entering an experience of the sacred, and in that broad sense sacramental.

Perhaps the most obvious of the unofficial sacraments are the charismatic ones. From its beginning in 1967 the Catholic charismatic or Pentecostal movement has attracted the attention of Catholics the world over by its unashamedly evangelical approach to Christianity and its rediscovery of New Testament forms of prayer and ritual. Since then it has also found adherents among European and in American Catholics, and has gained acceptance by most of the Catholic hierarchy.

Members of the Pentecostal movement usually attend a weekly prayer meeting in addition to the Catholic Sunday liturgy. The meeting sometimes follows the pattern suggested in 1 Corinthians 14:26-40, but it always includes some distinctly charismatic sacramental practices. After a period of prayer, for example, a member of the group may feel moved to announce what he or she feels God wants be said, giving the group encouragement or admonition, and in these words of prophecy the others hear the word of God being addressed to them personally and directly. Or someone at the meeting may seek spiritual or physical healing and ask I be prayed over, and the group will gather around and rest their hands on the person's head or shoulders or arms or back. While the group is praying confidently that God's healing power will cure what needs to be cured, they often sense spiritual strength being channeled through them, and the one being prayed for feels a comforting warmth and presence. Genuine physical healings sometimes happen, but not always.

The most dramatic of charismatic practices (at least to outsiders) is called [glossolalia, praying or speaking in tongues. An individual or the entire group may begin to utter a sequence of strange sounds that seem to be connected like words in a sentence even though they resemble no known language, and the effect on the group is sacramental. To them it is a remanifestation of what happened at the first Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled the hearts of those in the upper room and moved them to speak in strange languages (Acts 2:4; see 10:46). Sometimes the entire group will be moved to join in, praying and proclaiming the praises of God. At other times only one will speak and the rest will wait in silence until another member of the group interprets what was said in tongues.
Pentecostal Christians both Catholic and Protestant also participate in another sacramental ritual known as baptism in the Spirit. Some Protestant groups accept it as the only authentic baptism, but Catholics who have been baptized as infants instead regard it as a release of the power of the Holy Spirit, which was first received through the official sacrament. The rite itself is simple enough: the person who wishes to be baptized in the Spirit sits or kneels, surrounded by members of the prayer community who rest their hands on him or her while praying that he or she receive the fullness of God's Spirit. The sacramental effect is at least a more vivid sense of God's presence and power, and a not uncommon effect is the ability to pray in tongues. For Catholics the ritual also marks the person's explicit entrance into the charismatic community, and is a sign of being called to live more fully in the Spirit.

The other things that happen at the prayer meeting are more common Christian phenomena-praying, singing, and reading from the Bible but in the charismatic group these actions are more actively sacramental than in the typical church service. The religious openness of these Christians makes them much more receptive to the sacred significance of the prayers and scripture passages, and their genuine eagerness to respond to God fills their singing with a joy that is itself contagious. In fact the whole prayer meeting as it mounts in enthusiastic openness to the Holy Spirit becomes itself a sacramental liturgy, gradually gathering all those present into its sacred space and time.

Besides the Pentecostal movement, in contemporary Catholicism there are other organized movements of spiritual renewal, and some of them work sacramentally. Among the more notable ones are the Cursillo, the Marriage Encounter, and the Focolare movements.

PJD
Jan 16 2007, 08:53 PM
Den Robert:

I wonder whether your impression of ‘hurt feelings and anger’ is really correct. Personally I view the discussions on the two topics as rather informative and lively; and although people here are projecting their own views/experiences, I don’t think that this comes under the label of ‘converting’.  Indeed we are privileged I would have thought that many have had the courage to ‘bear their minds and hearts’ so to speak.

Now where has anybody not stuck (in the main) to ‘types of spirituality or practices of different ways’? In that sense therefore it is not clear, to me anyway, what you mean by “moving the thread back on track”.

The text you provided did made for an interesting read - primarily covering CCR – which, fair enough is informative and which forms this topic’s title. But, just one thing though: Rosary, Benediction, Devotion to Mary and the Saints is still practised here - week in week out – at least where I am. In general I don’t believe these practices have been dropped in England – naturally what happens in America is for you to say.

Mind you this reply is obviously only my opinion, please correct me if I have misinterpreted what you are getting at - as wires can be so easily crossed.

Sorry about all that.  I had better stop there (smile).

God Bless,
PJD

Deacon Robert
Jan 16 2007, 11:51 PM
PJD,

No, you understood my post for the most part. In the first instance, I explained why I did not post. It is based on 20 years with the Charimatic renewal and 12 in ordained ministry. I did not say that it had happened here, but my experience is that it is just a matter of time before it happens.

The text which I posted is not my opinion, it is the author's. It also includes Western Europe. I can, if you wish, give a list of reference material that it is based on.

His opinion aside. We still have the sacramentals mentioned in the piece I posted in my Parish and most others, but if you compare pre VII to post VII those devotions and the number of people practicing them have  dwindled to a mere handful in most of the Western world. they have become the exception not the rule.

Deacon Robert
Jan 18 2007, 01:06 AM
PJD

I have no problem discussing:

Quote:
 
Regarding dwindling numbers – now that is quite another argument [not the fact, but the ‘why’]. If the moderators wish this to be discussed here, okay by me. But be prepared for sparks.


In another thread.

But, know before that I put the blame on those in high places. the average PP and the clergy were given little direction on how to impliment VII. That is why there is so little uniformity between Parishes. Each apparently did " his own thing. It is just in the last 10 years that Rome has decided to start to reel in the most flagrant abuses That have come about.

PJD
Jan 18 2007, 06:42 PM
Den Robert:

Yes, flagrant abuses, liturgy and all that. I agree in that sense one can look to the high places you have in mind. For me, that’s but one category of ‘high place’. Here I feel we must widen things out [I’m usually awkward I’m afraid (smile)].

Nevertheless, to start, let’s take your reference to the Parishes. I’d accept what you say. Probably more accentuated in America than over here - but never mind. However, its contribution to the modern problem? Very small? Did a quicker Mass, or a Mass in the vernacular, or a liturgy where the priest faces the congregation, a Vigil facility, contribute to a lower attendance (or interest) by the young? I would have thought the opposite. There have been of course persuasive arguments fielded to the contrary.

But, Den Robert, that’s just the beginning…….

if e.g. one thinks of the modern cultural order imposed by Western leaders, business etc.

if e.g. one casts a critical eye on the supposedly pre 1970 superior level of Catholic intellectualism, theology etc.



Gerry:

I agree entirely with all that you have just said.

PJD

[Not to re-direct the topic, but it ties in [en-parallel] with the spirituality subject. Especially regarding ‘faith’, as mentioned by Parable, and its connection to the triple classification for visions and all that.]

PJD
Jan 18 2007, 06:42 PM
Den Robert:

Yes, flagrant abuses, liturgy and all that. I agree in that sense one can look to the high places you have in mind. For me, that’s but one category of ‘high place’. Here I feel we must widen things out [I’m usually awkward I’m afraid (smile)].

Nevertheless, to start, let’s take your reference to the Parishes. I’d accept what you say. Probably more accentuated in America than over here - but never mind. However, its contribution to the modern problem? Very small? Did a quicker Mass, or a Mass in the vernacular, or a liturgy where the priest faces the congregation, a Vigil facility, contribute to a lower attendance (or interest) by the young? I would have thought the opposite. There have been of course persuasive arguments fielded to the contrary.

But, Den Robert, that’s just the beginning…….

if e.g. one thinks of the modern cultural order imposed by Western leaders, business etc.

if e.g. one casts a critical eye on the supposedly pre 1970 superior level of Catholic intellectualism, theology etc.



Gerry:

I agree entirely with all that you have just said.

PJD

[Not to re-direct the topic, but it ties in [en-parallel] with the spirituality subject. Especially regarding ‘faith’, as mentioned by Parable, and its connection to the triple classification for visions and all that.]

Deacon Robert
Jan 19 2007, 12:12 AM
Quote:
 
Yes, flagrant abuses, liturgy and all that. I agree in that sense one can look to the high places you have in mind. For me, that’s but one category of ‘high place’. Here I feel we must widen things out [I’m usually awkward I’m afraid (smile)].


I think I should have been clearer on this point. The older Priests I have known told me that when it came time to put the changes into place they received little guidance from the Bishops and great resistance from the people. They were caught between the two. A big thing for Bishops and others in that position is they are insulated from everyday workings of the organization. Lower level functionaries will do everything in their power so as to not “disturb” the master. But generally abuses of liturgy are not the major problem ( I don’t believe for a minute that you are awkward )

Quote:
 
Nevertheless, to start, let’s take your reference to the Parishes. I’d accept what you say. Probably more accentuated in America than over here - but never mind. However, its contribution to the modern problem? Very small?


I have to disagree. Everything begins in the Parish. It begins with the PP or as we call them “the Pastor”.
If he is weak, lazy or does not take leadership of the Parish, all aspects of Parish life suffer. The PP is responsible for the care and education of the people. When he allows others to take charge AND does not properly train and supervise them. He is asking for a Parish, which has no head and little communal identity. In business it is called “shadow of the leader” Essentially the organization takes on the traits and demeanor of its leader.


Quote:
 
Did a quicker Mass, or a Mass in the vernacular, or a liturgy where the priest faces the congregation, a Vigil facility, contribute to a lower attendance (or interest) by the young? I would have thought the opposite. There have been of course persuasive arguments fielded to the contrary.



No, I don’t believe that any of the things mentioned had a major impact on attendance. The:
Lack of Catholic identity
Poor catechesis of young and old
Watering down of church teaching
The Father “Buddy” syndrome

There are more reasons, these come to mind readily, and deal with the church specifically. I am sure that you have thoughts I would like to hear them. It will give a point for some dialog where we differ.



But, Den Robert, that’s just the beginning…

Actually it is DCN. Abbreviation for Deacon, I am ½ Belgian (the southern part) Den sounds more like my Northern Flemish cousins. :D

Quote:
 
if e.g. one thinks of the modern cultural order imposed by Western leaders, business etc.


Do we want to discuss secular influences of the church? I don’t mind if it is all right with the moderators, I think a separate thread might be appropriate though.

Quote:
 
if e.g. one casts a critical eye on the supposedly pre 1970 superior level of Catholic intellectualism, theology etc.


I don’t think there was a superior level prior to 1970. I do believe that there is a lack of authoritive teaching passed down to the people. There are far too many “experts”.

PJD
Jan 19 2007, 07:11 PM
Dcn Robert:

Your response regarding post V2 has indeed clarified your earlier remarks. Thus we find ourselves in general agreement – ‘abuses of liturgy are not the major problem’.

Returning to the Parish - and including your item ‘poor catechesis of young and old’. You are right to disagree in the sense that you have threaded in ‘education’; which is a most serious of matters - especially in relation to “children”. A culture of indiscipline also touches upon your item ‘watering down of church teaching’.  There is a tendency nowadays to shy away from discipline. Everyone wants to be liked, fly from any personal risk, and should anything goes wrong Mr. Nobody is always there to take the flack (smile).

Weak, lazy, not taking leadership, not properly training and supervising them – can be reflected in the PP – but that particular issue ultimately ends up with the Bishop. More seriously though, secular forces, including Catholic laity, often act against the PP and enact processes that are so forceful that even the Bishop becomes powerless. For, there are many hidden agendas out there, and sadly some within the Church itself. For many of them rationality and the recognition of error are not their strongest points. Their ideas and prejudices usually set in concrete. As St. Teresa would say – bound by chains no file can sever -  [what an awful reminder for us to guard against].

I am not sure exactly what you mean by lack of Catholic identity, or Father Buddy syndrome. I mean above the sense that Catholics visibly attend Mass, and Father is subject to obedience- especially respecting the liturgy of the Mass.
.
PJD
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Rose of York
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The previous post consists of a few postings copied from Charismata thread. PJD suggested some of the content would be better for another thread. The moderators agree. If I completely remove them from Charismata thread, some of the "chain of thought" on Charismata thread will be lost.

I therefore suggest we stick to discussing Spirituality and Charisms on the Charismata thread, and the reduction in church membership, on this one. Both subjects are equally important to the Church and her members.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Jan 16 2007, 03:16 PM
I will post a section on "unofficial sacraments" from a text on sacramental theology that is used in many of our seminaries.


Deacon Robert
Jan 16 2007, 03:17 PM
In the space of about ten years, from 1965 to 1975, many of modern Catholicism's unofficial sacraments all but disappeared, at least in North America and much of Western Europe. The rosary, benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, devotion to Mary and the saints, and other sacramental practices of the modern church still flourish in eastern Europe and in the developing countries of Latin America, Africa and Asia; but in the lands most affected by new ideas, technologies, and lifestyles the change has been drastic.


I have just spent a few days in a town that has quite a large church with a thriving community. Every day from Monday to Friday there is a full hour of Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, followed by Rosary. They still have October devotions and during Lent they have daily Stations of the Cross. The current congregation in that church appears to be about two thirds what it was before the Second Vatican Council. Also the parish is very active in other areas such as social life, fund raising and welfare. They are doing much better in the "numbers game" than most parishes that abandoned the old, traditional devotions. The parish has no particular leaning towards Traditionalism with capital T (ie Latin and/or Tridentine Mass).
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Angus Toanimo
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Whilst not exactly having any great ideas about why people are leaving the Catholic Church (and knowing that it isn't all because of the Second vatican Council) it will be interesting to see what sort of impact the forthcoming Motu Proprio may or may not have on parish churches.

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Rose of York
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Rose of York
Jan 23 2007, 02:33 AM
The current congregation in that church appears to be about two thirds what it was before the Second Vatican Council.

I omitted to mention that parish is in a town with one of the highest muslim populations in the UK, despite very little net increase in people. Therefore the Christian population in general has gone down, most of the younger indigenous English having moved out. From that I conclude that there are fewer Catholics in town than during pre V2 days, sos having a congregation 2/3 of that pre 1964 is an achievement. They are doing better than most.

As to the forthcoming Motu Proprio I do not think it will have a great impact in England. Time will tell.

There are new Gods, called Money, Career, Property Investment, Pension Plan, Financial Security, Healthy Eating and Fitness Routine. Nothing wrong with any of them, so long as they are not given the Number 1 spot in one's life.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

What you have just said Rose is most encouraging.

Perhaps we are viewing attendance figures pessimistically.

I know over the past ten years attendance at weekly Mass has gone up considerably where I am - more people retired I suppose.

Will think about it some more.

PJD
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Rose of York
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PJD
Jan 24 2007, 09:40 PM

I know over the past ten years attendance at weekly Mass has gone up considerably where I am - more people retired I suppose.

Will think about it some more.

PJD

In my parish, most of the congregation are over fifty, and a large proportion over sixty five, but attendance in most churches in the area has gone down whilst ours has gone up. In ours, newcomers are given every opportunity to "feel as though they belong". It may be a simple matter of inviting them to do the Offertory Collection or making a point of including them in conversation after coffee. If we ignore people who seem to want to get to know others, we run the risk of hurting them at a time when they have moved house, left old friends behind and are trying to put down new roots. Having had that done to me, in the past, I know how it feels to be welcomed everywhere but my new church. My attitude is "If they go in for coffee, that is a good indication they want to meet us." All it takes is a smile, no rush rush rush, I'll smother you with welcomes whether you like it or not."

The man at the top (the parish priest) will have a better chance of keeping his people if he is seen to be interested in all parishioners, not just an inner circle.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Yes that is I think the secret of a well run parish - the priest has to be open to all - and those, especially the Sacristans, have to be very discreet with regard to their attitudes, which can only be done [sounds pious talk I know] by good example.

A smile can be one of the best things; just a smile - affection flows from a simple smile I think.

PJD
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Rose of York
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This is an old discussion, resurrected by request from a member.


Health Warning:

It is a bit confrontational.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD


I'm not sure that the Hierarchy are very good as statistics, comparative studies etc. to include movements in different cultural elements etc. Probably difficult as things change a lot now. Probably hit and miss in the same way as government figures are usually very hit and miss.

PJD
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Ned

Confiteor - I sometimes read the Sunday World.

Here is a part of Father Brian D'Arcy's column :-

Quote:
 
There are many reasons why people stop going to Mass. They are usually personal - such as a breakdown, a bereavement that has left people angry, or depression; pressure of work; or maybe quite simply a doubt about faith.

The biggest reason I hear for people not going to Mass though is 'it's boring'. Young people say they would rather play football or watch television or lie in bed on a Sunday morning. I rarely get a chance to sit in church and listen as a member of the congregation. I hardly ever get a Sunday off now.

When I used to, I invariably went to Mass in the pews. Occasionally, I got something out of it, but mostly I was silently seething. The preaching was less than inspiring. The homily was ill prepared, sometimes inaudible and almost always lacking in any structure or point.

Hardly ever did it show signs of study or that the Gospel came through the preacher in any way. At best it came out of the preacher. For a homilist, that's the great mortal sin.

The Second Vatican Council emphasised the importance of preaching The Word. Other religions do emphasise The Word, however. When I studied in America, an Episcopalian priest who worked in Chicago told me that he had written into his contract, a 10 hour period to prepare for a Sunday sermon.

There was a Baptist Minister who had six hours written into his contract for the same purpose. Very few priests would spend 10 hours preparing. Which is a real pity. I am now 40 years a priest. Almost every Sunday in my life for those 40 years I have had to prepare a sermon.

I still get really anxious about it. I can hardly ever use something I have written before. Each week I would spend at least six hours preparing a sermon. I am not saying I am any better than anybody else. I am saying that even after six hours, I can still get it wrong.

If God's word is that important, then how could I face God without showing respect for his word. At least in my conscience I know I do that. Nowadays, there are readymade homilies for busy priests. I have rarely found anything helpful in them. I much prefer background
material which helps me unlock the scriptures which are read.

Worst of all, more and more priests are beginning to read their homilies. This is the ultimate insult to your congregation and gives the impression they have pulled them off the internet.

I agree with that 100%.

The full column, and it's a really good read, is at http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/father-brian.php.
Edited by Ned, Monday, 4. May 2009, 20:10.
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