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EMPTYING PEWS
Topic Started: Monday, 2. October 2006, 11:21 (1,616 Views)
Karin
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Karin
I've been sitting here watching the postings on this thread and from what I have seen, I think we can all agree, something has to be done in the Catholic Church in the UK to bring people into and not away from the Church. But what are the churches doing to get the "seats in the pews?"

From over here across the pond in the land of cheeseheads and a very bad Green Bay Packers football club, I can only tell you my observances. Here we have such integration on all points. Almost all the parishes have Bible Study, Men's Group, Ladies Altar and Rosary Societies, Adoration, Youth Group, Film Night, Vacation Bible Schools, Children's Choir, Youth Choir, Adult Choir, "Chicken Q" (selling broasted chicken, cole slaw, potatoes and gravy to support something in the parish), bus trips, Cake/Bake Sales, Newcomers Nights, Spanish Language Mass, Latin Mass, Signed Mass, RCIA, Catechism Classes, Couple's Retreats, Mommie and Me, CCR, Coffee Club (after Mass in the meeting room for coffee and donuts), Bowling League, Scouts and much more. We finance all these activities with fund raisers, dues or donations from the community. There is also the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe under construction, which is amasing. In our city alone, we have eight parishes for 54,000 people. That's a pretty good percentage. 25% of our city is Roman Catholic. (20% is Lutheran, so we are ahead of the game!). And we have a Catholic university, too. (Plus three seminaries and a bunch of convents.) Masses are normally packed. I think the Cathedral is doing a Polka Mass this Sunday to close out Oktoberfest.

We offer social and spiritual activities for people of all ages, not just for the young, but for everyone. Some of our parishes offer a little brochure members keep in their pockets or cars to hand out to people they meet, with all the details of their parish life inside - pictures and times. We provide for a welcoming and enriching church for everyone. We are handicapped accessible in all areas. AND we got rid of the green cardigans on hooks...everyone has a say, a task if they want it and new ideas are encouraged. These are the things that keep people alive and interested in coming to church. (Yes, even with the annual diocesan appeal telly next to the Ambo!)

And we have gone through the clustering and closing process already. It wasn't nice or pretty, but the end result has strengthened our Diocese. We have over 230 parishes in this Diocese and it's growing by leaps and bounds, with new churches being built and parishes formed. And it's this way all over the United States. We took a page out of the Evangelicals' books and offered something for everyone, to make the parish the social and spiritual centre of an active life.

Yes, La Crosse had the dubious distinction of having more pubs per capita than anywhere else in the country...we have a number of brewries here (also a HUGE commercial bakery which is making whole wheat bread at the moment....oh yum), but we've also tried our best to offer the Holy Spirit His venue to move through the community to do good works, to make our community more cohesive and supportive. No community is perfect, but our Interfaith Council is extremely active in keeping faith at the forefront here and I think it's also important to note that when one needs help, another is there in numbers to help.

Maybe this all has to do with a spirit of community, both spiritual and secular. Could the drifting away be tied in with the way in which the communities support one another? I've said this before, that apathy kills. Towns die, people move away, older folks don't or can't get out to Mass/shopping/appointments unless others offer their assisstance. Have we as a society become so self-obsessed, that we forget our brother or sister? There is secular competition out there folks and the church used to be able to compete, but what is it doing to combat this? Maybe that's why a lot of people aren't interested in adopting a spiritual home? What's on offer?
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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Judging by postings by Deacon Robert and Karin, American parishes do have strong community spirit, also they are better organised than most of UK parishes. Here it is "hit and miss". Something may or may not get done. One priest welcomes secretarial assistance, may even employ one. Another priest insists on dealing with even non confidential paper work himself. One priest uses the skills of laity, another moves in and arranges social events himself, while people ask if he can find time to visit during an illness. A person might make a suggestion, and be greeted with the response "we tried that once." Well that person might be good at whatever it is.

Have we failed to move on from the days when the forefathers of many of us came here from Ireland in the nineteenth and early twentieth century, many lacking good education, having to rely on the priest to do everything?

Here in the UK there is no official parish role of members. There is no requirement for a parish to invite newcomers to register in a parish, to state what they are willing and able to do for the parish, or if there is anything they need from their parish community.

I have just read the article in The Tablet.

England. Mass Attendance

1998..........1,230,100
2005.............893,100

down by 337,000. How low would the attendance figure be if first generation immigrants were deducted?


Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Just a short thought on this subject.

We are of course quite right to question lack of attendance, failing vocations, historical deficiencies, secular interferences, and the general dispositions of modern society etc. which detract severely from religious practice. And it is frustrating that, when considering all of these and many other problems not mentioned, we are frankly unable to secure for ourselves adequate or potentially corrective answers to such seemingly insurmountable difficulties.

Nevertheless it appears to me equally correct to continue to address and discuss matters, as is usually done, on forums and elsewhere, piece by piece, topic by topic, difficulty by difficulty. Failing in our rhetoric, short on good ideas, trying again, regrouping etc. and gazing, as it were, on an indeterminable sequence of hit and miss solutions. Often coming out worse than when going in.

However, in my humble opinion, there is light within all of this inasmuch as Our Blessed Lord wishes that we should undergo all of this. Not so much as for arriving at satisfactory solutions (He will effect them Himself) but purely because He wishes us to carry on doing what we have been doing. Which thereby forms a prayer acceptable to Him.

PJD
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Karin
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Karin
Just got my copy of "The Voice" from the Diocese of Lancaster and it looks like they hold all kinds of activities for the community at large - Interfaith meetings, concerts, retreats, seminars and speakers, luncheons, invitations to see their facilities. It's really great. I know they have had some financial difficulties recently, but it looks like the Diocese is very solid and aiming at growth. So there are some good things happening in the UK.
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Derekap
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What is a Polka Mass, Karin? I don't think my first thoughts of everyone dancing the Polka during Holy Mass are really correct!

As regards collections, I don't think many Catholics realise the parish has to pay for electricity etc, flowers, cleaning materials, candles and even bread and wine.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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A lot of people never look at parish accounts, even when they are given copies. There are two possible reasons for not reading them:

1. "I would not understand them". Most people would understand, if they got rid of the fear, or lack of self confidence. At the top is Money Received, broken down into categories such as Offertory, tax repayments and donations, then their total. Below to the left is a list of Outgoing like heating, lighting, clergy upkeep, totalled up. Deduct "money out" from "money in" and the answer is the year's surplus or loss. Most of us have done that with private income and expenditure.

2. Not interested. The problem with showing an interest, is we become aware of just how much parish upkeep does cost.

3. None of our business, we used to leave that to the priest.
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Karin
Interesting about the accounts, Rose. We all get a quarterly statement from our finance committee, signed by Father Larry, with an overview of what's needed over the next quarter. Everyone in our parish knows where each penny goes. If we are over - fantastic and if we are under, it only shows where we need to improve. Plus, each week in the bulletin, we have a mini-reconcilliation of income from the previous week. We also have discussions about the statements, so that everyone knows what our income and outlay are. And the same goes for the Diocesan expenditures. We are extremely open about our accounting practices.

As to a Polka Mass, Derekap, this is a long-standing tradition at the Cathedral, where Polka music is played during the Mass, usually during the processional, collection and recessional...only three songs. Everything else is the same. There is a second collection to pay for the festivities and most often the band members are part of the parish. Then after the Mass has ended, people enjoy the music outside of the church, while the bishop greets folks.

We have a huge contingent of German-Americans here, along with Norweigans and some French. And we have an Irishfess every year for the rest of us. There is always some kind of festival going on here, but we don't attend very often...don't like the crowds. But these kinds of celebrations bring in people from all over the country. That's Wisconsin for you! Want some cheese?
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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We could increase Mass attendance by at least five per cent, immediately, if the bishops would put a stop to the silly nonsense of allowing parish priests to appoint untrained people to deal with disability access. Hardly any of the people receiving Holy Communion at home, on a permanent basis, are truly housebound. They just cannot use the facilities at their churches.

"I had to move to another church, because the pews at Saint XXXXX's were so close together, my knees were crunched up and I was in agony. I had a word with Father, he said not to worry, I was under no obligation to go to Mass if my 'condition' was causing discomfort. I told him I want to go, it is nothing to do with obligation. He would not listen to me." That was said to me, by a healthy young woman, she was not ill. She was thoroughly enjoying being pregnant. The church, with a capacity of about 500, has a congregation of 120. All she suggested was, get rid of a few pews, make the gaps wider. She wondered how many old people, or sick people, were staying at home because going to Mass was too painful. I went to that church once - never again. I am very short, but my knees were crunched in a ridiculous angle.

Get our churches accessible, the attendance would increase overnight. Treat people like dirt and they will stay away.

So far, at least three churches in England have faced legislation due to breaches of the Disability Discrimination Act. All three have settled out of court. We cannot have bad publicity, can we? That would be horrid.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Karin
Oct 4 2006, 07:15 PM
Just got my copy of "The Voice" from the Diocese of Lancaster and it looks like they hold all kinds of activities for the community at large - Interfaith meetings, concerts, retreats, seminars and speakers, luncheons, invitations to see their facilities. It's really great. I know they have had some financial difficulties recently, but it looks like the Diocese is very solid and aiming at growth. So there are some good things happening in the UK.

They had financial problems because the Diocese used money that belongs to individual parishes. They did that without the authority or knowledge of parish priests. Even current accounts of parishes were raided, to pay for curial expenses. The trustees had to stand down, and were replaced. It is all in the auditors report. Auditors advised the Diocese of Lancaster that if they do not take some steps to improve financial management, the diocese will be insolvent within six years. Insolvency is a legal situation in which the courts can place charges on land and property, have them sold, and freeze bank accounts until creditors are paid. In other words, a parish could find no Sunday Mass due to bailiffs nailing a closure order on the church door.
Keep the Faith!

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Karin
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Karin
Thanks for the clarification on the financial matters for this diocese, Rose. Financial mismanagement and problems seem to be happening a lot lately and not just in the UK. I just saw an article about my former Diocese in Iowa, which has had so much scandal, lawsuits and huge payouts to the victims of sexual abuse.

The Diocese of Davenport has paid out over $10 million to these folks and unfortunately the assets of this diocese can't cover it. Insurance paid for part of this amount, but what was left didn't leave the diocese in financial health. So, this Tuesday, it filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. It's one of four diocese in the country which has filed for bankruptrcy.

Then, this week, it was announced the bishop has retired and a new bishop will be enthroned on November 20th. Bishop Franklin, the retiring bishop is 76 this year and last year sent in his retirement request as required by the Vatican. Bishops must do this on their 75th birthdays. If they are physically and mentally able to continue in their present capacity, then they usually stay where they are, but like Bishop Franklin, who has major health issues, their request for retirement is granted. The new bishop is from Akron, Ohio and is 65 years old. He is an ancillary bishop there in a diocese of over 800,000. The Diocese of Davenport has slightly over 100,000. That's going to be quite a change.

The bishop of our diocese is my age....VERY YOUNG!!!! So he has a lot of years ahead of him here. Fortunately for us, our diocesan financial health is in good stead, but I'm sure in other areas of the country, diocese struggle to attain their financial health, especially in light of the payouts from these lawsuits.

Have there been many lawsuits in the UK?
Karin

Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas.
"Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us."

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Rose of York
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The last three items from here have been transferred to a new discussion:

Learn from the Pentecostals, says Cardinal Kasper.

We felt that this discussion explores many reasons that may be contributory factors to people leaving the Church. Pentecostal worship is quite a big issue, and worthy of a thread of its own.
Keep the Faith!

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EROS
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When I started this thread I never expectid it to get so explosive. I agree with Rose about the tightness of pews this stops people sitting down with ease. Disabled people cannot sit down so they leave, as you know I suffer with R.A. so I for one carn't sit on a pew, luckly we have a new priest and when he was told he went out and got some chairs, the right chairs too, not just any sort, as he asked me about them. I was so impressed I brought a couple more. Due to the chairs being installed a few more people have come back, to mass as now they can sit down. Maybe priest should be looking at seating then maybe they will fill seats not empty them.

LOVE TO ALL EROS :wacko: :wacko:
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maklavan

The decline in Church attendance is not confined to the Catholic Church. Religions worldwide are showing a decrease, except for Islam. The figures for a local Catholic Church make interesting reading. YEAR: Average Mass Attendance
1980 557
1986 532
1991 432
1996 313
2001 225
2005 148

These figures actually show that the leakage has slowed down. They also make nonsense of the extremists’claim that Vatican 2 was the cause of all ills. The real decline did not start until the early 90,’s; 20 years after Vatican 2. There impact is,nevertheless, devastating, not least on parish income from the humble plate.Churches will not be closed because of finances, but because of decline in attendance, which causes decline in finances: a catch 22 situation.

We have a piquant situation now, where Catholic parents who are not married bring their offspring for baptism and couples who have been cohabiting for years continue to do so right up to the day of the lavish wedding--- a nuptial Mass, of course. I have met many former catholics who are happily worshipping in non-Catholic Churches,and sincerely feel they are following the Lord. It could be the arrogance and patronising attitues of some Catholics which drove them out in the first place, but that is spilt mailk. The burning issue now is, how do we evangelise those nearest and dearest to us?

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Gerard

Maklavan,

I graphed that data but do not know how to insert it into this post. However, the plot fits a liner regression which means it is not slowing down or, if it is, the effect is not marked. It is a very spectacular fall !


Quote:
 
The decline in Church attendance is not confined to the Catholic Church. Religions worldwide are showing a decrease, except for Islam


Maklavan, that is just so not true! The Catholic Church is growing in the world. Some areas like China and Africa the growth is explosive. The same can be said for other Christian Denominations. Dont let the fact that Christianity is being rejected in the rich west make you think it is declining everywhere. On the contrary it is growing. Have a look at this graph here:

Statistics

Look at the line for Live Christians......

By the way everyone - look at the line for Unorganised charismatics :D and then tell me this is not part of the answer. ;)

Gerry

P.S.

Note that the y-axis of the graph is on a log scale.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Oct 16 2006, 01:21 PM

Look at the line for Live Christians......

By the way everyone - look at the line for Unorganised charismatics :D and then tell me this is not part of the answer. ;)

Gerry I would if I could. I am adept at reading upside down text, but not sideways.
Keep the Faith!

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